Jen LaForge 0:00

Welcome to Stat. I'm Jen LeForge. This is a show about how real people and real brands are stretching value in today's economy. Not theory, not generic money advice. We're getting into how rewards, loyalty, partnerships, and digital tools actually work and how they're being used in real life. Let's jump in. We are living in a world where it is becoming easier and faster to purchase and buy and spend sometimes without even realizing that we're doing it or that we even wanted it, which puts us in a precarious position as consumers. But I've got great news. I am joined today by Danika Nelson, a curator and a voice on financial savviness, intentional living, and the psychology of money. So she's going to help us really understand what's going on inside those customer journeys, inside ourselves, but also how to be very smart and intentional with our lives so that we can still reap value from our everyday shopping. So, Danica, thank you so much for being here. Let's start. I have a big heavy question for you. And it's around this idea that people continue to fund and spend on a lifestyle that they don't even want. Can you tell us a little bit about that dynamic and how prevalent it is in today's world?

Danica Nelson 1:23

It's unfortunately very prevalent in today's world. And I think it is a combination of social conditioning. We have been kind of sold this dream that in order to be seen as successful, we need to, you know, get the good job, the nine to five job, buy the house, and buy the things that signal, you know, success, whether that's a nice car, nice clothes, et cetera. And then also I would say social media is playing a huge impact in this. We see people always having sporting like the coolest clothes, they're doing unboxing videos, they're doing the hauls. It's almost been normalized that we should be acquiring all these goods to signal success. And unfortunately, it's detrimental to, you know, society because people are spending well beyond their means to kind of keep up an image.

Jen LaForge 2:07

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think there was a point in time right after the pandemic when there was a lot of economic pressure where things like uh wearing dirty shoes instead of white shoes became popular for a minute, or women were moving towards balayage because it was less expensive and lasted longer than than than full hair treatments. So there was like this moment in time where we started to go in reverse and then we bounced right back, right? So, what's going on there in terms of how economic pressures are influencing our reaction to all those pressures? It was an aggressive bounce back.

Danica Nelson 2:43

It was a very aggressive bounce back. And I think a lot of it is kind of like revenge spending. A lot of us are trying to take back those years that we lost during the pandemic. And, you know, a lot of the recession indicators you mentioned, like the balayage and things like that, and doing our own DIY nails, those things got old very quickly. And, you know, we're trying to, you know, find our way back to our former selves. But again, unfortunately, sometimes at a detriment because the economy is not looking so great right now. People are struggling financially, but still have these desires to keep up a certain look.

Jen LaForge 3:16

And how detrimental is it that your identity be so tied to these activities or spending occasions that are ongoing and consistent. I mean, that seems like a very expensive way to be a person and not very authentic. What can you say to that?

Danica Nelson 3:35

It's extremely detrimental because a lot of the times people are comparing themselves to people who we only have access to their highlight reels. One of my favorite quotes is don't compare your behind-the-scenes footage to someone else's highlight reel. We see a lot of these influencers who have all of the cool and flashy things, but we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. And even normal people who we see with a lot of flashy things, we don't know what their credit card statements look like. We don't know if they're in debt. We don't know if collections are calling them things like that. We really need to be only paying attention to our own stories and kind of muting the background noise.

Jen LaForge 4:10

I think that's an important message. I'm glad we started off right away with that. Now you talk a lot about designing a life with freedom. Let's start that conversation with you just telling us what a life with freedom means to you.

Danica Nelson 4:25

Yeah, to me, a life with freedom means living life on your own terms, not necessarily a life that was sold to you. As I mentioned earlier, a lot of us have been sold a dream that we have to have, you know, the stable nine to five job, one job that often we carry for as long as possible to reap the benefits and the pension and the matches and things like that. Uh, we've been told that we have to have, like, you know, get a nice car, have some children. That's what the idea of success is. And for me, I realized that actually doesn't really align with my idea of success. I like, you know, dabbling in multiple different ways to earn income. I like doing content creation, for example. I like doing financial education and, you know, teaching other women how to like overcome things like burnout and things like that to live their best lives. I also don't like having, you know, one home full time. In 2023, I sold my home and I live part-time abroad, typically in like Malaga, Spain, and Chiang Mai, Thailand, um, because I like doing those things. I like dabbling in different cultures, learning new languages, coming back home to Toronto to, you know, connect with my friends and family when I like to. Ultimately, for me, a life of freedom or freedom lifestyle is a life on my own terms and not necessarily buying into a dream that was sold to me because that wasn't really my dream to begin with.

Jen LaForge 5:42

Yeah. I d I think we're all questioning the dreams that we we've we bought into these days. But uh, this seems like a great segue. My favorite question to ask uh our guests are what does value mean to you? And I feel like you answered it a little bit as a as it relates to a lifestyle of freedom. But what's value mean to you? And how would you describe it? Value in like what context or what sense? Well, so say in the context of where your money goes, how you spend it, what you're getting out of your your money, let's shift a little bit onto the monetary side of value versus the value in having the freedom to live your life and to travel and to do the things and immerse in culture. Let's shift over there.

Danica Nelson 6:26

Yeah. I mean, they are kind of relevant though, right? Because for me, value means like actually, you know, making the most of the dollars that I'm spending to buy back my time, to buy back my energy, um, and to just spend money on things that genuinely bring me joy. And that's what really what value does mean to me.

Jen LaForge 6:42

Okay, value is joy free of joy. Yes. Some would argue now that buy now, pay later, uh, which is not at all like a layaway plan, but somewhat like a layaway plan as we were chatting earlier. Um, some would argue that that will give them more freedom. What are your thoughts on buy now, pay later, and this idea of freedom?

Danica Nelson 7:00

I am not a fan of buy now pay later. And that is the most tame way that I could say how I truly feel like. Let them let it out. It's not my favorite. I think that utilizing buy now pay later services is a very slippery slope into debt. And there are some use cases where I do understand why people would take advantage of buy now pay later. For example, unfortunately, where we are in today's economy, people are using buy now pay later for groceries and for like basic necessities and things like that. That I get it. If you don't have the money and you need to survive today, you need to eat today, do what you gotta do. But we're also seeing, you know, some people are putting vacations on buy now, pay later that, you know, they don't necessarily need to, you know, take immediately. They're more so utilizing it for like more frivolous spending. And it's a slippery slope because unfortunately, a lot of people are landing into debt because of these services.

Jen LaForge 7:53

Do you think that's been driven by a culture of treat myself and I deserve this? And, you know, how much of it is is just filling some emotional voids we have. I think you covered that perfectly.

Danica Nelson 8:07

A lot of it is treat yourself, YOLO, you know, things like that. And to an extent, I do understand that because at the end of the day, life is hard, life is tough. And sometimes emotional spending can kind of help when, you know, things are rough. But, you know, you have to have balance there. You need to be really mindful of like, you know, the money going out because it can be detrimental to your to your long-term finances and your future.

Jen LaForge 8:30

Or reframing it, right? I deserve to put this in my savings account and watch it grow. I think we need a lot of reframing as well. Exactly. So, in that being, then, Danica, um, do you think that that those struggling with a lot of debt right now, uh, let's take you know the big factors aside, is it a math problem or an emotional problem?

Danica Nelson 8:50

I think it's both, to be honest. Like from the math perspective, we see what's going on in the job market. People are getting, you know, laid off aggressively, wages are low, unemployment is quite high. Like people are struggling to just put food on the table. So that's a math problem, right? There's more money going out than there is coming in in a lot of aspects. But there also is an emotional problem. A lot of people experience something called financial avoidance. A lot of people just don't want to look at their statements. A lot of people would rather just, you know, continue putting things off for as long as possible until there's an external signal that forces them to deal with the problems. So sometimes that can look like, you know, collections calling or, you know, a maxed-out credit card or things like the CRA calling you, things like that. Some people unfortunately need those like very like, you know, red alert buttons to act on that debt. And that can be quite emotional. But ultimately, a lot of people have like, you know, financial avoidance and also financial trauma. Anything to do with money just seems to be like a very, you know, hard and heavy topic. So they tend to just try to just not talk about it and not deal with it.

Jen LaForge 9:54

Where do you think that trauma is coming from? What what is the fear? Because you know, I've also heard, you know, people are are 10 times more likely to talk about their sex lives than they are about their financial lives. And so, where do you think that's coming from? How how we were raised generationally? I mean, what's the root of that? A lot of it is generational.

Danica Nelson 10:14

A lot of it is, you know, you grew up in a household where talking about money was a very stressful topic. It was something that was very heavy. There may not have been enough. And, you know, you kind of carry that into adulthood. And money trauma is something that is very difficult to overcome. I am certified in trauma of money, and I still carry money trauma with me just because of, you know, how I grew up with money and how I kind of saw the way that money caused some negative experiences within like my childhood.

Jen LaForge 10:42

So it's a very difficult topic to work through. It is. I'm thinking about, you know, prior generations. We blame some of that comparison culture that drives a lot of that overspend on social media. But it also feels like, you know, 30, 40 years ago, comparison culture was alive and well then too. Like how how heavy is the comparison side of this problem that people are facing? Do you think?

Danica Nelson 11:08

I think in all generations, people are trying to keep up with the Joneses, whether it's through, you know, social media, whether it's through, you know, your coworker, things like that. There's always going to be an aspect of that comparison. Um, it's kind of just like a part of part of who we are as humans.

Jen LaForge 11:23

Would you say that building uh financial freedom requires us to be facing some of those generational traumas, so to speak? And how, like, explain what that journey might look like, or if you went on that journey to this life of freedom you have. I absolutely that's what I had to do.

Danica Nelson 11:42

I had to kind of face financial trauma head on in order to be on a road, you know, towards financial freedom. For example, I was raised by a single Jamaican mother who taught me to save money. Don't spend money. Right. Spending money is like, you know, the last resort, you know, save, save, save. So I, when I learned about investing in the beginning, I was terrified because investing, what do you mean? I'm just gonna put my money and hope that it grows. Like that's bizarre. I wouldn't do that. But, you know, learning to overcome that financial trauma, understanding, you know, how the market works and things like that, that's kind of what helped me overcome that and put me on a road to financial freedom because, you know, I was able to buy my home, sold my home, and that really just kind of helped me put me on a path towards success.

Jen LaForge 12:24

I love that. And it could have gone the complete opposite, right? To have a parent so focused on saving, you could have been a money burner. And so I feel like you at least leaned in the right way and and you you dealt with it very constructive. So congratulations. Thank you. I think some would argue flexibility is a big part of freedom and building a lifestyle of freedom that you want. But some would say that's what buy now pay later gives them is that flexibility. I like seeing you fired up. So talk a little bit about that.

Danica Nelson 12:52

Flexibility, but at what cost, you know, like there are some, again, like I said, there are some positive use cases that I understand. People who like have no choice but to use it. Some people also have irregular income. So it kind of makes sense for them to figure out their purchases on buy now pay later because they can kind of time when those payments are due with when, you know, they have to pay for those services. But I just worry that, you know, we live in an age of like instant gratification. We want the thing, we buy the thing immediately. Like we were talking about earlier, layaway. There was this concept where like you're working towards the thing and you can't have the thing until you finish paying for the thing. That kind of taught a behavior of saving and like the value of the thing that you're purchasing. Whereas now, you know, buy now, pay later, it's like, oh, you can just have it right now. And it teaches people that, well, I would say it doesn't teach people, you know, sometimes the importance of like saving for the thing, actually sleeping on it to make sure that you really want to acquire the thing and it's not like an impulse purchase. Do you need it? Are you gonna have buyer's remorse later, etc.?

Jen LaForge 13:53

Okay, so sleep on it. That's my first tip. I'm gonna take away, um, leave it in the cart, sleep on it, and then come back in the morning. Absolutely. Very fair. Um we talked a little bit about that um saving, saving, saving. Um, when you live a life of freedom and you're traveling, if it seems contradictory to someone in that undesired freedom path, bought into a lifestyle for a long time, they don't seem to go together to me. How can I have this life of freedom and still save money? I mean, that's a conundrum. How do you solve for that?

Danica Nelson 14:30

So for me personally, when I'm, you know, traveling, I typically spend my time in countries that are lower costs of living. So, for example, I moved to Malaga, Spain for a year. And when I moved there, the cost of living was about 43% less than Toronto. Okay. So already my money is going a lot further, and I'm able to save a lot of money. So there are different creative ways that you can kind of make both work for you.

Jen LaForge 14:53

And how do you tie that in with intention? Right? So you're going here because this is how you can afford this freedom, but I really want to experience this. So I have to be over here where it costs more. I mean, how do you blend all of that together? Like, tell us a little bit, maybe um Cole's notes on like how would you start thinking about rebuilding this life of freedom?

Danica Nelson 15:18

Follow the joy. Honestly, follow what brings you joy. For me, it is learning new languages. I'm like pretty good at Spanish now. Okay. Um, I love Thailand because I like to eat. So there's a lot of joy there with food and trying new things. But I also find a lot of joy in being home with my community, my friends and my family who are based in Toronto. So for me, it's like making a custom mix of all of the above to make my perfect freedom lifestyle.

Jen LaForge 15:42

Okay. And that's valuable to you. That's your value. I love it. So, in um, I want to talk about habits now. I'm gonna switch gears a little bit, but we all have habits and we have spending habits. And we'll get to subscriptions in a minute. But what what would you say, like what habits are becoming more expensive than most people realize? And we talked about hair and nails, but like what are some of the things that we might not be thinking about top of mind? That's a good question.

Danica Nelson 16:11

I would say, like, you know, watching halls of influencers of anything they purchase can be there, it can be a slippery slope because we see them using the thing and we're like, oh, that looks great. I want that. And, you know, buying all of these new releases. Something that I have been actively working on is something called project pan. Are you familiar with the term? No, no. So uh it's going back to like, you know, cosmetics and things like that. But it's kind of this new trend where you have to use the whole pan or the whole product up completely until you um until you're able to buy a new one. So the term project pan is like, you know what I'm and when you have like a little um like a makeup pan, for example, a powder, you can until you hit pan, you are not able to purchase a new thing. And that's a new habit that I've got a lot of my community into because it forces them to actually use all of the things that they have that they've paid for, that they've used their hard-earned money for before they get distracted by the latest release in whatever the field is.

Jen LaForge 17:07

That brings up a whole other sense of accomplishment and joy because I remember the first time I actually finished a chapstick without losing it. He snarked and finished the whole thing. Like I could have ran up a mountain and announced it to the world. I was so excited. It took me like 40 years, but I finished one chapstick without losing it and or getting a new one. So for you, I feel like there's a whole other joy.

Danica Nelson 17:33

There's honestly, a lot of people end up like posting pictures when they hit pan on whatever their products is because you're right, a lot of people are very proud of it because it's just biz it shouldn't be, but it's bizarre now. It's almost out of the ordinary to finish a full product that we buy.

Jen LaForge 17:47

I think there's a a lack of discipline in today's society driven by, you know, short reels and just not having an attention span anymore. I mean, discipline requires the longest attention span ever. So I think there's a there's a whole discipline in there that it might catch on. It does.

Danica Nelson 18:06

And I also have a lot of empathy for people who do tend to purchase emotionally because life since, you know, COVID started has been rough for a lot of people. I mean, of course, life has always been rough, but we've had a a really rough like, you know, six years or so. And a lot of people turn to purchasing things to kind of, you know, just temporarily distract themselves from what's going on in the world. Again, though, balance is important. There's a difference between buying yourself, you know, a $20 something here or there versus like every single day you see something, you're adding to cart.

Jen LaForge 18:38

Yeah. I'm sure there's there's someone listening here who treats himself too much as feeling very guilty about that, but but feels that emotional need for it. Is there anything you could share with them or tips on how to break that habit, how to break that emotional cycle? Like what can they do instead? And I know you talked about sleeping on it, but that's not going to feel the emotions that buy now does. So what can they do to start reframing their thinking? Because I mean, I'm sure I feel guilty of it, but there's there's probably 10 people right now feeling guilty about that habit.

Danica Nelson 19:13

For me, I always recommend that people map out their dream life. What does your dream life look like? What do you actually want to accomplish? What do you want to unlock with your money? And, you know, have that on a vision board, have that on a picture, and do everything so you can get towards that goal. So if you want to, you know, buy a new home, if you want to be able to, you know, travel the world and things like that, you, you know, purchasing all these little things is distracting you from that goal. So I would tell people, you know, to always just, you know, remember what are you doing this for? Why are you working? Why are you doing the things that you're doing? And, you know, always have your mind on that, that one thing that's that's your goal.

Jen LaForge 19:50

Okay, I love it. Vision boards, goals, discipline. We need this. We all, we all need this.

Danica Nelson 19:56

Yeah. And also just finding low-cost hobbies, I think, can be a really good, a really good like, you know, thing to help them kind of, you know, don't not spend too much. Um, I think during the pandemic as well, a lot of us discovered, like, oh, painting is fun and we can get paint from the dollar store. Find low-cost ways that can kind of like ease any stress or anxiety that you're experiencing because it can save money, it can kill some time, and it can kind of like ease and like regulate your nervous system at the same time.

Jen LaForge 20:24

I think it's important too to touch back on that comparison culture there as well, because yes, you can buy paint at the dollar store, but those horse hair brushes cost a lot of money and might need better brushes. Or walking and running is very inexpensive until you need the new shoes and the fancy shorts and and the water bottles. So, um, how quickly could that, those, those inexpensive hobbies blow up if you're not careful? Very quickly.

Danica Nelson 20:48

Like you said, I've seen running is free, but now people are joining run clubs and they're joining all of the different types of races and things like that. I would say it's also important to just like, you know, you want to curate who you're following and your community as well. So, like for me, for example, anyone who makes me feel inadequate, anyone who makes me feel like I'm not good enough because I'm not spending a lot of money, I unfollow them. My feed is very curated to only people who I aspire to be. And I think that's very important because, you know, we are impressionable people. And um, when you see on social media, when it's being waved in your face 24-7 that you're just not good enough because you can't acquire all of the things, it feels crappy, right? It doesn't feel great. So I would say, you know, curate who you follow and then also in real life, your community, who you surround yourself with, find people, whether that's like family, friends, coworkers, et cetera, who have the same goals that you do, because it can make it a lot easier to kind of work together so you don't overspend and you stay within your limits.

Jen LaForge 21:47

Yeah, you are who you know, right? Exactly. And again, being very intentional, not just on how you're spending your money, but who's influencing your spend on money. I love that. I feel like it's far more difficult for younger generations to. Day than it was, say for me when I was younger, I'm still very young. But um, you know, for me, I can quickly turn off the social media when I feel like I'm not enough because of that post. But some people could get trapped in it and they could get very trapped in a lot of things that being under this generation of influence and then the influence of their generation. So if we look at how young professionals today are being taught about money, are they being taught on how to build wealth or just how to be better at spending? Like is that idea of wealth out the window today, or is it the same conversation, just a path to get there?

Danica Nelson 22:45

I think it's a choose your own adventure. You can get the people who tell you that this is how you get better at spending money, you need to acquire all of the things, or you can follow the people as well who teach you how to build wealth, who teach you how to invest, who teach you how to save, who teach you how to, you know, make the best use of rewards and things like that. So you really need to be mindful and intentional with how you curate your feed because you know what you get is who you follow.

Jen LaForge 23:09

Okay. You said rewards. So I'm gonna pivot there is kind of my my world here. So this is stack. You're on stacks. We talk a lot about stacking rewards. So you can earn cash back with Rackuton and your cash back with your credit card, plus get those brand uh retail points. So uh, what would you say is something worth stacking rewards for? And uh, what should people absolutely like skip financing for? So buy and stack like crazy, and absolutely skip financing for two things.

Danica Nelson 23:42

For the skipping financing thing for, I would say if you don't need it, don't finance it. You know, like just straight up. If you don't, if it's not like a necessity, I don't think it's necessary. Um, it's like we said, it's a slippery slope. Things can get um very ugly very quickly. People are impacting their credits, which is impacting their ability to take on loans, to buy homes, cars, etc. So for me, I would say buy now, pay later is gonna be your last resort. I think it should be people's last resort personally. We talked about some use cases where it makes sense, but I don't think that it's like, I don't think it should be second nature. I don't think it'd be it should be like, oh, Visa, MasterCard, or buy now, pay later. I don't think it should be that easy of a decision. And in terms of stacking, in terms of rewards, the things that you want, the things that bring you joy, the things that you need. Uh, for me, for example, um, my partner and I, I bought us these matching Jamaica jerseys um from Meditas using Rackatoon, of course. Thank you. And that brings me joy because we have these matching outfits for both Jamaican. We were very proud of our heritage. Um, and those things bring us joy. And that purchase did not put me in debt. It's something that was a want. It was not a need, but it brought me joy. It brought us joy. And then, of course, anything that would bring value to your life. For me, of course, as well. Uh uh travel is always going to be something that, you know, you can find find creative ways to stack, or what I'm calling stack maxing now. Okay. I like it. You might you might have said stack maxing. Yeah, okay. You're stack maxing. So you're getting, you know, the the racket in cash back, you're getting the rewards on your credit card. If you're paying with a credit card, you're getting the points directly from the company. Stack max as much as possible. I like to treat it like a game. Like I treat it like a personal challenge, personally.

Jen LaForge 25:21

Yes. And it requires discipline, right? Because you it, you know, how many times have I been halfway through adding things to my cart and realized uh I work here and I forgot to go through acting, but I go right through and I load my cart back up again and I stick with it. So I like that stack max. And I was we might steal it. We might steal it. Yes. There's also uh the the compounded gains too or or compounded debt where we're trapped in this world, not just with buy now, pay later, where you know, it seems like if I split this payment up monthly, it's it's very affordable. But I've done that 10 times and it's no longer affordable when you stack all that up, it becomes a lot of pressure and hard to manage. Can you speak to those habits and how people could break the habits of stacking smaller payments into a monthly big payment?

Danica Nelson 26:16

Yeah, I think it goes back to really just prioritizing, you know, what's most necessary. And does that need to even be a buy now, pay later um item in the first place? You know, like I think we should save it for necessities only. I don't think that it should just be like a, okay, it's just there, so I'm gonna do it. I think it needs to be a very like well thought out decision because to your point, like some of these things out of nowhere, all of a sudden it's like, oh, I have a lot of payments. And a lot of people, unfortunately, are paying those payments with credit cards. So now they're transferring the debt from that to another one with more interest, and it just becomes a giant mess. So being very mindful of what we're choosing to use buy now, pay later for is extremely important.

Jen LaForge 26:58

That's right. And I think you you said it earlier as well that financial avoidance. So these are all hitting your credit card and you're not looking and you have no idea how many subscriptions you have or how many buy now, pay later payments you're making a month. And you're just completely blind to these impulse because they feel so quick and easy. Which begs the question. When I think of buy now, pay later, I think of like Cashmart on the side of the street where you can cash your check earlier. But people are far less likely to go to Cashmart to get those cash advances than they would say use buy now, pay later. Is it something sexy about the marketing and branding and that's online and you're not seen walking in the doors of a Cashmart? What do you think has captured the psychology of people with buy now, pay later?

Danica Nelson 27:45

You're right. It's excellent branding and it's the ease, right? You can do it from the comfort of your own home. You don't need to ask anyone to do it. You kind of just, you know, put in a few things on your phone and there it is. It's easy. But it can be just as predatory as those payday loan systems, which by the way, I am the biggest hater of payday loan systems. Um, it can be just as predatory if people aren't careful. So again, using it as an absolute last resort is is very important.

Jen LaForge 28:12

So you've given us a lot, but I think there's themes here that we can all learn from and pick apart and spend time on reflecting for ourselves. But if someone wanted freedom in 12 months and money was a big factor, what is the number one move they should make this month to make it there in 12?

Danica Nelson 28:33

I would say put in your calendar a monthly money date with yourself. This is where you sit down and you review every single purchase that you made for the month, review all of your credit card statements, your debit card statements, et cetera, cash if you keep on, you know, like a record of that and see where your money is going. Because unfortunately, a lot of us just kind of spend and we don't really know where our money is going. But when you have these money dates with yourself quite often, you have like you're more mindful of it. You are more aware of where your money is going. And hopefully seeing that helps you correct behaviors that you may not be happy with. I would say just being very mindful of your spending is going to be very important. And of course, being mindful of like your saving and your investing and any goals that you're working towards as well. Just make sure that you check in with yourself often because a lot of times people kind of just, you know, you forget about it. You know how you make New Year's resolutions in January and by now, people like May, June, people don't really know. What did I even say I wanted to accomplish? We need to be constantly checking in with ourselves to ensure that we are working towards our goals the way that we set out to.

Jen LaForge 29:35

I love that. I love the money date, that the idea that you just dropped, but I'm going to show you what I've learned from our conversation. If I'm having a money date, I am not going to treat myself on that money date. So I'm not going to go out to a nice restaurant and I'm not going to get some champagne, like maybe a peppermint tea, something small, treat myself, enjoy my money date together. Um, Danica, thank you. Before we go, uh, we're gonna ask you the important question. I think we all know the answer to this, but by now, pay later. Are you gonna stack or are you going to skip? We're skipping. We're skipping. Absolutely skipping. We're skipping. Unless you need it, unless we understand. Sorry. But for the most part, uh avoid it or you will need it. Yeah. That's what you're saying. Exactly. Hey. Well, uh, my financial freedom plan starts today. Daninka, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. And that's it for this episode of Stacked. If you found this useful, follow along as we interview leaders shaping the future of retail and learn how value really works behind the scenes. And if there's a topic you want us to unpack, I'd love to hear from you. See you next time.