Jen LaForge 0:00

Welcome to Stacked. I'm Jen LeForge. This is a show about how real people and real brands are stretching value in today's economy. Not theory, not generic money advice. We're getting into how rewards, loyalty, partnerships, and digital tools actually work and how they're being used in real life. Let's jump in. Everyone, please welcome Lindsay O'Brien to the podcast today. Lindsay and I have worked together over the past four years. She has brought our loyalty program together with uh Tim Hortons World to Rim. If you're familiar, uh you've seen us on The Cup every March. Uh Brains Pine the Operation really brought the partnership together. Uh creative strategists deeply embedded in the consumer journey and really how the sausage is made when it comes to loyalty programs. So, Lindsay, as you know, in Stacked, we are here to pull back the covers, help consumers and brands really understand how affiliates, how loyalty works, and give them real life tools to be able to maximize their spending and their earning. So very excited today. We're not going to go into some industry panel and talk, you know, all of the jargon. We're going to have a real conversation, which is why I think you are just the perfect fit for this conversation today. So let's dive in. Um, Lindsay, loyalty programs are everywhere. Every brand, big or small, has some sort of a loyalty program that they are uh leveraging. Talk to us a little bit, just high level, on why some of them work and why some of them don't. Like, what's the first differentiator that you want to help us understand?

Lindsay O'Brien 1:36

Thanks for having me, first of all. And uh I would say that this is a really big topic for us right now in the loyalty space. Loyalty programs, when you break it down in that sense, can sometimes feel a little bit transactional. When a program is built in the language of points and tiers only, it really leaves a little bit of value on the table. Consumers are telling us that they want more in today's loyalty landscape. Their loyalty has sort of become table stakes. We see many loyalty programs, many cards in people's wallets. And so the real differentiator between what makes a good loyalty program and what makes a great loyalty program is a program that makes you feel valued and drives a real human connection. We call that emotional loyalty as opposed to transactional artificial loyalty.

Jen LaForge 2:28

That's perfect. We've been talking a lot about emotions as it comes to spending our money. And it's become one of the biggest emotional weights that we carry today as consumers. I'm gonna pause there because you said value. What does value mean to you before we go deeper in this conversation?

Lindsay O'Brien 2:45

It's a very individualistic question that requires an individualized answer. Like I feel as though how I perceive value is very heavily linked to my personal values as a person. And one of those values that feels really like it's it's resonating for me right now is that sense of community, sense of belonging, feeling like you're a part of something. My partner and I recently moved back to our hometown. And it's been really important to maintain our sense of community that we built up living in a big city uh while still getting to benefit from the sort of small town closeness that I grew up knowing and loving.

Jen LaForge 3:20

So I love that. And that's so relevant to the country today as we're making more choices to buy local shop Canadian. Yeah. Um, and so you're doing it right in your community. Yeah. And we haven't had that answer yet. So that was perfect. That was beautiful. Um, loyalty could pull you away from that though. So talk a little bit about how a really great loyalty program could maybe redefine people's definition of value or change their behavior. What makes it a really valuable loyalty program versus a good one that you'll avoid? Go to Joe's. I love this question. Okay.

Lindsay O'Brien 3:57

Because a really great, like the best of the best loyalty programs actually have like such an innate understanding of the humans that are behind the screen. They are not talking in uh, you know, strictly financial benefit. And it's not just some transactional exchange. The best programs that we're seeing are really showing consumers and they're making consumers feel a sense of loyalty, feel a sense of community. They feel like they belong somewhere. They feel like they're given exclusive access to things that they they get from being a part of the club. They feel like brands know and understand them on a deeper level. And that's what makes me go to Jen's coffee shop over a coffee shop down the street is because I feel like Jen knows me. I walk in and she knows my order. She knows that I come in with my dog on the weekends. And so she's got a little bowl of dog treats waiting for my dog. Those touch points that show like a genuine understanding in between brand and consumer are what, in my opinion, uh drives really long-term growth through loyalty programs.

Jen LaForge 5:09

Not that. It's very human. Um, a huge proponent of shopping and consumers. We talked a little bit about that. Now it's easy for me to do that as Jen's coffee shop because I see you every day we're small. Let's talk about like a national loyalty program. How do they create that feeling in their program? What are those little moments that a massive loyalty program can provide? How does it do that to a million people versus five coming in?

Lindsay O'Brien 5:36

Yeah, the question of scale is on everyone's mind, whether you're scaling a small business to a medium-sized business or whether we're talking enterprise-wide loyalty. And you're right, the trick is the problem statement is like, how do we, as we continue to get bigger, continue to make everybody feel like they have a place of belonging, that we understand and that we know them? And the answer there is like, there's a lot of data that's out there that's available for brands to go and gather to really have a solid understanding of who their known customer is. We talk a lot about this idea of your known customer. Like, who do you know is your best customer who's already loyal to you? What do you know about the other programs that they're performing in or that they're participating in? What do you know about the complementary brands that they work with? Um, there's only a piece of the puzzle that comes from looking at the way that a customer engages with your loyalty program. They're humans at scale. And so that's where uh to answer this really big question, we start to look for other sources of where else we can gather data from. So when we start asking consumers questions about how do you feel about loyalty programs? How do you engage with loyalty programs? Then we look at how they engage with your loyalty program. But the brands who are doing this really well are also looking at how those customers engage with other programs. They're also taking into consideration general best practices and consumer behavior. They're bringing in all of these data points to form a picture about who are our customer segments so that you can take that small coffee shop feel and apply it to a company who is global in scale, who reaches millions and millions of customers every single year. The way to unlock that personalization is to have a really deep understanding that ultimately needs to be intelligence driven.

Jen LaForge 7:34

Okay. Human data, are we taking notes? Because it's a very common thing to get in our world. That's a very common theme. So let's talk about a company launches loyalty program or even relaunches our loyalty program because they realize they've done it wrong. Can you talk about what happens behind the scenes when that happens? They're launching a new one, they don't necessarily have the data, or they're relaunching, and so they have to see how it's going to impact the data. What's happening there? Oh my gosh.

Lindsay O'Brien 8:03

The team at Bond understands very, very deeply the amount of effort that goes into not just launching a program, but making sure we're launching a program that's sustainable, that's going to work, that can be scaled. Um, and so, you know, you you're starting with a significant amount of financial modeling. What's the right mix of rewards? Bring in some of those mechanics on tiering and and and pricing, et cetera, uh, to be able to get to build a program that's going to be profitable on both sides of the counter. But then there's also a lot of understanding your customer. There's customer research, there's journey mapping that's involved. Um, you can't build many things on a brand without bringing in your brand team. What's your loyalty brand? How does that fit into your master brand? And then on top of all of that, there's this tech layer. And, and, and, and. Um, and I think that those questions are the types of things that we're doing every single day with our clients. Like we're trying to help them fully understand the various different touch points that a consumer is going to interact with your brand. We're trying to understand from each angle, bring all of the teams together to be able to build a program that is going to be able to scale and it's going to succeed in the long term because it's rooted in a deep understanding of the customer.

Jen LaForge 9:22

You're right. There's so many different layers there. And that's why we appreciate a bond loyalty so much in our journey and the partnerships that it's brought. Because you also really work heavy on partnerships. So that leads me to a question. Uh, when we're talking about launching a new loyalty program or relaunching, what we're seeing is a lot more coalition, loyalty programs, and partnerships. Why do you think so many brands or companies are bringing loyalty programs together? And what's the benefit in that?

Lindsay O'Brien 9:50

In my personal opinion, a single brand can only be a part of so many different touch points in a consumer's life. There's no one brand that I can think of that reaches a consumer across every single part of their day. But what can make that easier is partnering with other brands who start to, you know, provide value to a consumer that a single brand wouldn't have been able to do on their own. What partnerships does is it creates this ecosystem. And when it's done well, it creates an ecosystem that's heavily rooted in how consumers go about their day. If you think about some of your favorite partnerships that are in market right now, they're likely because it feels like it's a no-brainer. I already love these two brands. I already need these two categories in my daily life. And so the existence of this partnership is making my life either easier or more exciting. And that's why we're seeing so many brands put partnerships at the very top of their objectives, uh, not just in 2026, but looking beyond. It's because we're hearing from customers that there's real value to be had when we're operating loyalty programs that integrate partnerships. Uh, consumers are reporting that they have more satisfaction in the brand as a whole. And that's, I think, something that's just driving real business value that a lot of brands are paying attention to right now.

Jen LaForge 11:14

What I'm hearing and what we're feeling is brands, you know, used to operate single lanes and silos and really focused on their own brand. But now we're seeing this fit into lifestyles. And brands are not only marketing to lifestyles and trying to understand the lifestyles and create those ecosystems, but the partnerships you would say are also creating that lifestyle match. And that's really what's key because yeah, that's a lot of data and a lot of people.

Lindsay O'Brien 11:41

Yeah, I I love the use of the word lifestyle. I think that that's that's the uh sort of secret sauce. When you only understand a consumer uh in in the way that they interact with your brand, you're leaving so much of their life on the table to be able to communicate with them in a way that feels really genuine and authentic. And it shows them that you know them. And that's where trust is formed between a brand and uh their consumers. And that is emotional loyalty at its highest sense. It's very circular.

Jen LaForge 12:11

Very circular, I would agree. Um, I I want to boil it down to the lowest common denominator, like the loyalty program, it's uh it's discounts, it's habit, it's uh it's points, uh, emotion, convenience. What is a loyalty program built around? Is it just a lifestyle, or does it matter what your brand or industry or product is that you structure this build on?

Lindsay O'Brien 12:37

Great question. And I mean, sure, this the answer does differ depending on industry, depending on brand. But in reality, like the best loyalty programs, uh, in my opinion, they're doing all of those things. They're offering financial benefits, uh, they're offering some sort of access benefit, they're offering some sort of personalization that shows that you know them. They're not thriving when they exist in isolation. The best brands, the ones who are seeing so much growth come from loyalty and partnerships, they're getting that because they're doubling down on the totality of emotional loyalty. It doesn't mean they're avoiding financial perks, doesn't mean they're not rewarding. It doesn't mean they don't have uh points involved. There's no cash back. It just means that they don't stop there. They go one layer deeper. And that's really where, again, the deep-rooted emotional loyalty comes from that makes a consumer want to stay with you long term and builds a relationship that ultimately uh can stand the test of time.

Jen LaForge 13:45

So big in every aspect, right? Every time I ask you a question, it's layer upon layer. And that's again why uh, you know, bond loyalty has been uh invaluable to a lot of brands putting all of that together. I know we didn't want to talk too much on the financial side, but there is a major financial aspect to loyalty programs. So I do want to dive into the economics a little bit. Sure. Companies are giving away points and and cash back and giving away the farm. How do they get a return? What does that return look like?

Lindsay O'Brien 14:15

I love to hear if that is the consumer sentiment that, oh my gosh, I'm just getting so much value from this program, how on earth is the brand doing it? Then they might be doing something right. But in reality, I in my personal opinion, I feel like the brands who are approaching loyalty, whether they're approaching loyalty design from the very beginning or whether they're redesigning, aren't viewing loyalty as giving something away. They're viewing it as an opportunity for reciprocal value. They give something, they give value to their consumers in exchange for value in return. And that's where that reciprocity is where the best loyalty programs are formed. Uh, it's because I, as a consumer, gained value that I wouldn't have been able to access if I wasn't shopping with this brand. I felt more personalization. I felt that the brand is actually looking out for me. I've gained something from this transaction. And in return, companies are getting a lot of really good data and understanding on how their customers react, uh, what their customers love, how their customers engage with their program. And in return, they're able to use that to drive more value. And so, really, I think the most important point here is that, like when done well, the point is reciprocity. The point is that there's give and take, and the best loyalty programs are a win-win for both the brand and the customer.

Jen LaForge 15:40

There's an ecosystem. Yeah. Everything's coming back together here. There is economics here though. So there's a lot of potential waste. Um, companies that do this wrong that don't understand the true value of loyalty programs, that ecosystem, how how could they very easily be wasting? And have you seen companies waste a ton of money on loyalty programs that just didn't work? I mean, obviously not ones that you've managed.

Lindsay O'Brien 16:08

You would help. You would help. Um, you know, I I almost want to reframe it as rather than seeing what brands lose through loyalty programs, it's like, what value are they leaving on the table? Like, are they, is there more that they could be getting out of their program, uh, but they're not because they're missing X, Y, Z. Um, and I would say that the real opportunity that can be lost is in only focusing on the data that comes out specifically from your loyalty program. When you only look at the way that customers are shopping with you, you're missing out on A, understanding how your customers are interacting with your largest competitors, but B, you're missing out on understanding what complementary brands your customers love. They love you and they love so and so. And so if we joined forces, we'd be able to drive more value. A good way to illustrate this is if I have a coffee shop and uh Jen comes through to my coffee shop twice a week and I think she's my most loyal customer. That might be true. She might be coming in more frequently than any of my other customers are. What I can't see when I only look at the way that Jen shops with me is that she's going to the coffee shop down the street the other three days a week that she's going into the office. So there's an opportunity for me to like see Jen as this entire person who has a fragmented wallet. She shops with many brands. And I can then start to identify like maybe there's room for me to implement XYZ so that I can shift some of that attention that Jen is spending down the street and I can have her shop with me more. Can I take that two and make it three, make it four, make it five if I do it really well? That's one insight. But then also I'm missing out on seeing that on the weekends, Jen's taking her dog for a walk. And so maybe that's when I start to realize that, you know, I'm gonna have a little tin of dog treats that are right by the front. Uh, but I also might find an opportunity to call up one of my local pet stores and see, hey, maybe there's some value that we could be jointly creating for these customers that very clearly find habitual nature shopping from both of our brands. And then boom, you're able to do more uh together than you would have been able to do separately on your own. So to bring all of that back in, the biggest missed opportunity that's sort of leaving dollars on the table is only looking at Jen as my most loyal customer because she came to me two days a week. There's so much more potential that we have when we layer in these multiple different levels of consumer uh insights and data.

Jen LaForge 18:47

Perfect. I love that you had mentioned habit in there. Um, I don't love that you just outed my caffeine addiction. Takes one to no one. Now everyone knows. But you said habit. Habit was so important. How do you keep them engaged, especially if it's not something like coffee that you buy every day or times a day? Um it's something you buy every six months. How do you create that habit? How do loyalty programs create a habit? And should we as consumers hate that you know how to do that?

Lindsay O'Brien 19:16

Good question that I think has a few parts. Uh, we if we take out the first one, like how do we build a habit? This is a question that brands are asking across the board. Is that how do I get my consumers, how do I get my best customers to keep coming back? And how do I get my next best customers to convert to my best customers? That is the question. You form habits or you gain the ability to form habits when you've built trust, when you've built credibility, when you are proving uh when a brand is proving that they know and understand what their customer needs and wants, habit building is heavily rooted in the individualistic nature of consumers. And so, you know, one can't exist without the other. If you want to build the habit, you have to have the trust. And then there's a secondary portion to that question that sort of talks about should we be creeped out by the fact that brands know this data? And I think that that goes back into the idea of reciprocity. We actually find that uh I think it's at least 89% of customers are either very or somewhat willing to share their data. They they have a comfort level to, you know, work with brands to be a part of this transaction, to provide data in exchange for getting some sort of enhanced value or like more personalized experience. And so when we know that that comfort level exists, it then becomes like, how do I then as a brand use that data with care to make sure that now I've built trust and now I have the, I've sort of like allowed myself the ability to put myself in a position where I can look to form habits alongside my customers as long as it's always rooted in the reciprocal value exchange. I provide you data on how I how I like to operate within loyalty programs, about how I engage with loyalty programs. And in exchange, I expect you to provide value that's unique and very personalized to me. Reciprocity is a really important piece in making sure that the program is sticky.

Jen LaForge 21:24

Sounds a bit like a marriage here. There's a lot of give and take to this loyalty program. And I think why a lot of companies could lose customers very easily is when they lose sight of that. I want to move into some practical takeaways because you promised everyone, you know, there's going to be something here for them to learn and build their savviness uh on. So let's start with how do you kill a loyalty program or how do you kill your most loyal customer? How do you lose sight of something that uh I mean, in our conversation, seems so obvious.

Lindsay O'Brien 21:53

Speaking personally, you've lost your consumer when you've started to treat them like everybody else. When you've started to uh talk in the language of points and tiers, when your customers are speaking in the language of dropping their kids off at soccer practice or going on first date, they're humans. And when you treat them like a one-size-fits-all approach, maybe there's one person that you might find who perfectly fits that one size fits all. But more likely than not, you're making a lot of people feel like they themselves don't have a space within your program and that they're just not gaining the value.

Jen LaForge 22:32

Okay. Lindsay, who is your favorite loyalty program in Canada?

Lindsay O'Brien 22:37

Oh, this is like asking about your favorite child. This one's tricky. Um, but I think sort of when I when I think about best in class loyalty, I think from my background, I think about partnerships and I think about the brands who have joined forces to sort of meet me at every single stage of my consumer journey. And I think the scene program, it'd be impossible to talk about best in class loyalty without mentioning scene. The fact that I'm able to across several touch points of my life link back to this same sense of community, the same sense of home with a loyalty program. You see the way that I'm talking about it, even just as a consumer, it goes beyond I get the ability to earn points. And instead, it's become something where when I think of scene, I think of filling up with gas on my way home from work. I think of going to get my groceries, I think of doing a new project around my house. I think of spending time at the movies with my friends. I'm thinking about my life. I'm not thinking about points and tears, which I think is a really good sign of the presence of emotional loyalty.

Jen LaForge 23:44

Okay, I would agree. But there you have it, folks. This has not been a paid endorsement because she did not say Rackutin.

Lindsay O'Brien 23:50

But I'm sure Rackutin's number two. I got my big bat check in the mail the other day.

Jen LaForge 23:55

So Interact, actually. Oh god, you've got a cash back direct to your bank to my bank account. We're number two. We can live with that because I also agree uh we are we are big fans of the same plus program as well. So, Lindsay, what have we left on the table? What do you think we haven't covered that do you think either our our shoppers, our consumers, or our brands need to know about loyalty in 2026? And it could be related to how AI is changing things, it could be uh how AI is removing us from the human aspect and what to watch out for. Could be something totally different. I'm not thinking about. What's that one nugget? What's your gold nugget to leave for us?

Lindsay O'Brien 24:32

If I had to choose one thing that I really wanted to make sure people understood, it's that I think there's there's a misconception on both sides of the counter. Okay. From a consumer perspective, like there's this understanding or there's potentially a belief that the only value I can get out of a loyalty program is like saving money, getting some sort of perk, getting some sort of benefit. But brands are spending so much money to understand, like to truly understand how they can create value that goes beyond financial value. Yeah. How they can make you feel like uh you are gaining something unique by being part of the club, how they can make you feel like they understand you as an individual. And so there's so much more value that consumers can extract. Uh, if you're already engaging in your loyalty program and you don't understand that yet, the brand isn't doing a good enough job at either crafting the value prop or in making you understand it. If you aren't engaging in the loyalty program yet, that could be an opportunity for you to say, hey, maybe there's something on the table here beyond simply I need to save money when I go to the grocery store or I'd like to get some free stuff. Uh, but maybe there's an opportunity for me to gain value across some different touch points. On the other side of the counter, some brands are still operating on this quite outdated uh misconception that their customers only value financial benefits. That's all that they're looking for. But for the past two years running, uh, our loyalty report told us that access, like financial benefits is still there, but access to unique experiences is the number one, it's the largest driver of loyalty to program success. And we can't ignore that. Like as brands, we have to understand that our customers have multiple programs uh as part of their ecosystem. And at this point, points and perks are table stakes. Like we have to find a way to deliver value that actually feels personalized, that feels like it's something that you can't get anywhere else. Everybody's got points and tiers. Uh, how do we take that one layer deeper?

Jen LaForge 26:42

I'm gonna distill that because what I heard you say in a nutshell, a little nugget nutshell, is that when the discounts stop, if your customers leave, that's not a loyalty program. Well said. Well to go. So selfishly, last one. How does Rackhton make you feel?

Lindsay O'Brien 26:58

Oh my gosh. You know what? I do my little happy dance when I get my my Rackhton in my interact now in the mail. I mean, I've told you this before, but I've been a pretty long-standing Rackhton customer. And I've got a real appreciation for the fact that the brand has continued to evolve, and now I have the ability to shop more of the brands that I love and get rewarded for some of that loyalty. So Rackton makes me feel pretty well understood, considering uh I can sort of meet you all at various touch points throughout my consumer journey. Perfect.

Jen LaForge 27:32

And I mean, who doesn't love getting free money? Oh.

Lindsay O'Brien 27:35

Show me one person.

Jen LaForge 27:37

There you go. Thank you, Lindsay, so much. This was eye-opening um from the sausage behind the scenes standpoint. There are so many aspects to think of and consider that make up a good loyalty program. In so many areas they can fall apart. Um, so again, in your notes, humans, data, uh, and uh don't treat your customers like every other customer, I think is uh my main takeaways here. You've got it. Hit it right on the head. Thank you for coming, Lindsay. Thank you for having me. And that's it for this episode of Stacked. If you found this useful, follow along as we interview leaders shaping the future of retail and learn how value really works behind the scenes. And if there's a topic you want us to unpack, I'd love to hear from you. See you next time.