Jen LaForge 0:00

Okay, Leslie, thank you so much for being here for everyone uh watching. Uh we have Leslie Hawkins, who spent over 12 years at Adidas. So let's start examining that time frame and tell us what you think has changed the most amongst consumer loyalty at Adidas in that time.

Lesley Hawkins 0:19

The biggest thing we noticed was consumers are no longer just buying a logo. They're really more interested in buying the whole story, the whole brand story. They're wanting to understand what are the values of the brand, what do they stand for. And particularly since the pandemic, we've found that consumers are less understanding or forgiving when you make a mistake. So, particularly those brands that, let's say, live in the sustainability space, they're truly making sure consumers are sort of holding them to account that if you live and breed sustainability, that that has to be fully embedded in everything you do, and that there's any sniff of greenwashing, and you're out. Now, for Adidas, obviously that wasn't the challenge. What we really learned about consumers is that we needed to understand that what they were looking for beyond the logo was a sense of community, and that sport and culture were inseparable, and that we really needed to bring those two together. And the better we could do that, the better connection we had with our consumers.

Jen LaForge 1:36

I I love that. I love that consumers are holding brands more accountable. Yes. I'm veering off track already because you talked about the sustainability and greenwashing. Not Adidas' challenge, but have you seen brands that were caught on the greenwashing side? Did any of them recover, or what does recovery from kind of cheating on those specs look like?

Lesley Hawkins 1:59

So whether it's sustainability and and greenwashing, you know, it's not for me to call out brands, but the challenge with consumers now is because they're less forgiving, is once you lose them, it takes that much longer to get them back. If you look at, you know, 15 years ago, there was brands that had product issues. And it became front page news and tights or see-through or whatever it may be. But consumers would move on, right? They were like, okay, we don't particularly like it. We're maybe going to, you know, chastise you for a short amount of time, but then we move on, we're still super loyal. In today's day and age, now this consumer is saying, actually, we're we're not forgiving you, and it's going to take us a really, really long time to come back if we come back, because now there's so many more options, and there's other brands with similar values that they can, you know, support and share their hard-earned dollars with.

Jen LaForge 3:00

We've really moved away from that transactional relationship, and it's more emotional now. Yes. How important is the emotional relationship with customers today?

Lesley Hawkins 3:12

So transaction, I think, is really easy to replicate, right? You can attract somebody by price, promotions, loyalty programs, I get points, whatever it is. It's really hard to replicate the emotional connection. And so that's, I think, the brands that are doing that really well are the ones that are winning consumers not just their wallet, but their long-term value. It comes down to they feel like they belong, they're part of a community. For a brand like Adidas, they feel like they're on the inside, right? They're inside the ropes, they get limited edition access to events, to collaborations. That is truly community, and to me, that's more of an emotional connection than a transaction. Transactions come and go.

Jen LaForge 4:07

100%. So you it's not 100% on the emotional side yet, though. Definitely moving in that direction. Correct. So, what do you think separates uh your customers that buy and your customers that belong?

Lesley Hawkins 4:19

A customer that buys is looking at one part of the experience. Generally, they're looking at like, do you have the product that I want at the price I want? And they're looking at your product and what you offer as a commodity. The difference between the consumer that belongs is yes, they might be buying product, but it means more to them. It reflects their values. They feel like they're part of the story, they're part of the brand, and that they have a connection and an investment, right? So they're not only investing their dollars, but they're investing their time. They're joining run clubs, they're being part of this community and they're helping to perpetuate it. Now, the way to really draw in a consumer to make sure that they belong is to make it less transactional. As odd as that sounds to say for retail, because ultimately our job is to sell product or sell of service, but really to draw them in, it starts with being crystal clear on what are your brand values, what do you stand for, and making sure that everything you do throughout your entire consumer journey reflects those values. Once you're super consistent with that, I think that's where consumers feel like they can belong, they can kind of take ownership and invest in the brand.

Jen LaForge 5:48

So we're talking a lot about leaning heavily onto the value side and that communication, the clarity. What if your competitive set are all competing with the same values? I mean, how do you distinguish where you belong when every competitor within the vertical or the category you're shopping in is all competing around the same value set. Is there a way to distinguish a brand in that regard?

Lesley Hawkins 6:16

I would challenge the idea that everybody in the competitive set have got similar values. I think what what's important to one, if I look at the performance athletic space, for example, what Adidas stands for and what Nike stands for are very different. How they transact with athletes is very different. How they invest in marketing is very different. Yes, we're in the same space and direct competitors, but I don't see a Nike consumer and an Adidas consumer the same. I don't think they cross over very much. People tend to be in that space really loyal to one or the other. And it's either they're loyal because of the brand itself or they're loyal because of the athletes, right? If you're a Michael Jordan fan, you're a Michael Jordan fan, and that's going to be embedded in everything that you do, and you will support that brand no matter what. But I I don't think that they necessarily do share the same values within a competitive set. Good enough.

Jen LaForge 7:17

And I like being challenged, so thank you. I wouldn't have thought uh you know, specifically not particularly on the shoe side, would I I've necessarily seen the value systems there. Um but what you're talking about leads us into fandom, and I know we're both very excited to talk about fandom. Um I'm sure you're aware, but Rack Chin has been in a partnership with the Golden State Warriors since 2017. Um we just renewed our partnership with them to include the Valcry's, so now participating in women's sports. Excellent. Congratulations. Thank you. But it's different. Uh this new partnership renewal is less about the the badge on the jersey and more about impact to communities and giving back, particularly in the Bay Area. So the strategies changed. Talk a little bit about, you know, Adidas within that space have done a lot with the community, a lot with impact. How does that create fandom and why is that fandom important?

Lesley Hawkins 8:12

I was one step removed from signing all of those partnerships. But the importance of those partnerships, yes, it's to serve product to the fans, but it's so much more. A lot of these teams are doing a lot with their local community, are helping underserved communities. If we look here in Toronto, the Toronto Raptors, for example, are doing a lot of work within the community to try and help those underserved. They're opening up new basketball courts, they're helping to support as much as they can to bring sport to those that maybe can't afford it. And so being partnered with a brand like the Toronto Raptors is just an extension of one of the values for Adidas of making sure that we are not just selling jerseys. Yes, that's a byproduct of it, but it's so much more. How can we, with our brand and the Raptors brand, actually work together to help those underserved communities? How can we do more to help them? And I'm always a big fan of two heads are always better than one. And that has proven to be really successful. It's been a great partnership with MLSE. And while those consumers may not necessarily be brand fans today or able to buy jerseys or to attend basketball games or hockey games, whatever it may be, the fact is that there's a connection. We've created that emotional connection with a brand who's come into their community and helped them, helped them with something that they weren't able to have before. And that matters in the long-term, you know, value of that fan.

Jen LaForge 10:01

Yeah, we talked a little bit earlier before we sat down about that fandom being the top of your funnels, top of the funnel, and that you're really creating a much longer pipeline where that customer might not be transacting or buying from you for another 10 years. Correct. And do you you know the longevity of a brand, how important is thinking about that 10, 20 year build to a brand like Adidas? Yeah. It's been around for forever.

Lesley Hawkins 10:29

Forever. The brands I think that are successful are the ones that look at the long-term value of that fan. And yes, there's a monetization of that, but it's so much more. If there's brands that are coming in and hoping that they're going to sign a team or sign an athlete, sell a lot of product, make a lot of money in a short amount of time, there's, you know, Harvard Business Reviews on those brands who have come and gone. But those that are really around for the long term are those that understand it's a long game, right? And it it's so much more than just I'm following this player today. It's I'm going to follow this player for their entire career. And then, oh, if they're a part of the front of office, okay, I'm still going to be a fan of that, of that athlete, of that team, because of what they've done in my community for me. I align with their values. And so it's not a short-term play. And I think in any part of brand building, it has to be viewed as a long-term game, anyhow.

Jen LaForge 11:32

So I'm going to connect some dots so far in the conversation with the fandom and the community and values with the right sports partnership or the the right sports player that people you know are going to follow. The values of that individual that the brand chooses to work with has to tie very closely to the the values of the brand. Yes. But some brands have gotten that that very wrong. Yes. And so it's a lot of money to have a misalignment on values and destroy what you're trying to achieve. Again, we're not going to call other brands out, but have you seen this happen and what does that look like from a loyalty perspective? Do those customers leave when that value mismatches, and particularly if they hit the news for breaking on those values? What happens to the customers in the fallout?

Lesley Hawkins 12:22

I can't think of a brand who hasn't missed out. I think it's so easy when you take your brand, a you know, a national brand, a global brand, and align it with an individual, we're all flawed, right? We all have our challenges. And so the key isn't necessarily that the consumer goes away. It comes back to what does the brand do immediately? So do they cut ties with the athlete? Do they denounce what has happened? Do they completely pivot? Or do they stay silent? And so it's less about what the athlete or the spokesperson does. It's more about the brand's reaction. So when things don't go quite as planned, is really paramount. The brand reacts in a way that is fully aligned with their values. And it might mean that you walk away from a lot of business, that you might walk away from an athlete or a sports organization or an influencer, whoever it is. But the moment it becomes more about the athlete and the spokesperson and less about the brand is the moment you've lost the plot. And so there's going to be missteps. It just happens everywhere. Yeah. It's about what do you do? And consumers will forgive you if you take the right stance. Right.

Jen LaForge 13:55

I mean it's a big risk. You're partnering with a human being. Correct. And uh as as their stardom grows, that's where the risk starts to evolve. Um and so uh I I I love that you started with accountability at the top to say we're all going to misstep here. Yeah because it's it's inevitable. So it is. It speaks a lot to your character and what you're bringing to Adidas. So thank you. Um the you know, in my mind, you've got all these customers at risk because of a misstep there. Um you're addressing it, but there's there's still a bucket of customers you're not going to get back. And that leads me to think that some brands might lean in with very heavy discounts to try and get that purchase.

Lesley Hawkins 14:33

Yes.

Jen LaForge 14:34

So talk a little bit about how discounts come into the picture there and perhaps why, if it doesn't work, which I have a feeling it doesn't work, um, what really distinguishes you know the difference between that fandom and discounts?

Lesley Hawkins 14:48

Right. The discount is a moment in time.

Jen LaForge 14:52

Right.

Lesley Hawkins 14:53

And it might get you that sale, but it doesn't buy you any loyalty with that consumer. And I am not a fan of discounts, to be honest. If you want to get creative with promotions, but if you want to get creative with promotions, right? It's BOGO, it's it's something different, it's buy more, save more, special size sales that we would do in footwear, for example. That's all good. But I find the moment that a brand starts going down the discount route, it becomes a race to the bottom because everybody can replicate that. Everyone can replicate a transaction. What brands can't replicate is that sense of belonging and that fandom. And fandom shows up in community, it shows up in uh them feeling like they see themselves, like they're on the inside of the ropes. So I'll give you an example of true fandom and a brand getting it right. Now, of course, I'm super biased having worked at Adidas for so long. But at the 2026 World Cup, there was an activation by Adidas at Stacked Market in Toronto. And yes, there was a retail component to it on the outside of the installation, but it was where all the watch parties happened. There was food trucks, there was drinks, there was seating, there was umbrellas. And more than anything, it was just soccer fans from all nations, or football fans, I should say, coming together to watch and celebrate the beautiful game that football soccer is. And I went down with uh my husband, we are both Scots, we were watching the Scotland Morocco game. My husband was in his full kilt, I had the full Scottish flag, and we spent the game cheering with two gentlemen from Norway. There was no conversation about anything else other than sports and fan and brand. And they will leave, and their comments again and again and again, not knowing any brand that I was affiliated with, was this is a great experience. I love the brand for what they're doing. Now, that will stay. That to me is fandom. It's bringing people together in community at a moment in time to celebrate something. And that creates, I think, long-term brand association.

Jen LaForge 17:28

I love that. Yeah. You made me think about ROI because it's very hard to measure what that beautiful experience of the World Cup was and how it translates to the return. And I have a soft spot for marketers because CEOs really want that return and they want results, and marketers, some things are hard to measure. Very. How how does a brand go about measuring the experience of the World Cup? And the that's mega dollars. It's mega dollars. That were put into that. Yes. How do you know it worked?

Lesley Hawkins 17:57

So you can't put a metric against it per se. And that is, as a former marketer, I get it, right? It's really, really hard to say if I invest this million dollars, I'm going to generate sales of tenfold. And yes, there's jersey sales and everything, but it's the the long-term average value of that consumer that you need to start looking at. Now, in something like that, the event that was at the World Cup celebrating those watch parties, that's creating community. And that you cannot build a metric around. You can see how many people came through the gate, how many people bought merchandise, but what you're really trying to do is make sure that your brand is embedded in the culture of when people think of soccer, football, they think of Adidas. They think of the experience they had, they think about the fact that it was free to get in and that people were coming back for every single game and watching with their friends, with their family, with complete strangers. That you can't build a metric around, but it will pay itself in dividends down the road with people uh associating you with that experience. And as long as it's a positive experience, which in this case it was, that's where the real juice is.

Jen LaForge 19:20

I think that um helps those who are not in the space marketing world or working for for sports or or in the category retail for sports. There's always a question that's a lot of money that these brands are putting towards partnerships with sports affiliations and athletes and participating at the World Cup. Everyone knows who Adidas is. Everyone in the world. So why does Adidas have to put all that money out for this brand awareness and for these experiences? I think you explained that in a way, but for me before really understanding the space, I always wondered that. So for the average Joe watching, why do brands like Adidas that aren't known globally need to be dumping millions of dollars into these things?

Lesley Hawkins 20:07

So you're right, people are aware of the brand. It's less about brand awareness and it's more about building community. And I am saying it again and again and again because it's a different way of looking at how you spend your marketing dollars, how you spend your dollars. Being there to support the athletes, to support the team, to support the sports organizations is important because it's literally part of the DNA of the brand. Right? So Adidas started in footwear, started in football, soccer. And so it's important to keep that affiliation alive. Just because everybody knows about your brand doesn't mean that, well, my job's done. I don't need to support it anymore. I think it's important that you stay fully embedded in the sports and the athletes and the organizations that are part of your core DNA. Now, you take a big global brand like Adidas that is involved in a lot of sports worldwide. And so it has it was always a challenge, particularly from a retailer, of trying to make sure that each sport had its moment within retail store. And that becomes super challenging, right? When when it's Wimbledon or F1, or you're trying to make sure that each sport has got its moment, but it it's more challenging because the brand exists across so many different sports and platforms.

Jen LaForge 21:39

It's huge. And and majority of the world is a fan of a sport or some sports in some regards. So you're capturing a lot of potential customers and carrying them along on your journey. But there are some who are perhaps sports agnostic, um, and this type of marketing doesn't work on them. So there's another subset of customers and that that I'm guessing uh you're gonna lean towards my world, loyalty, deals, uh, value. What role does affiliates and publishers like Rackton with cashback, what role does that industry play to Adidas? Yeah, so sports-heavy.

Lesley Hawkins 22:26

Right. So big global brands don't just live in one specific space. So where Adidas has really become very strong is in the blend of sport and culture. And so the big growth for Adidas has come on the culture and identity side, right? Through a lot of the retro products that have come out, the Adidas Originals line. Everyone was wearing sambas for the last few years. And so it's not just an athletic company, it's so much more than that. I think where it's important in these kinds of partnerships is making sure that you're getting exposure beyond just the fan, beyond just the sport, and opening it up to consumers that maybe you're not top of mind. Maybe you're not in the consideration set. And so partnerships like this would offer that opportunity. Right. To reach people like me. Yeah. I still want that discount. Yes, and although off camera, we're going to talk about you not being a sports fan, but that's okay.

Jen LaForge 23:36

I said sports agnostic. So I mean, you put me in a basketball game, I'm a basketball fan. You put me in a baseball, I'm a baseball fan. But am I tracking any teams or loyal to any particular one? I like the atmosphere and the cold beer and yes. Um and the fun of the game. The fun of the game. So so agnostic, sports agnostic. I got myself in trouble here. I love football. Yes, there you go. This is very dangerous to not say that today. We're gonna go back to the the loyalty space there. Um, so what I'm thinking about between individuals that are more like me and those big fandom uh customers, is their definition of loyalty different, or would you describe their loyalty different?

Lesley Hawkins 24:24

The word loyalty is a bit challenging, I think, because it's all encompassing. There's those that their loyalty is tied into how many points can I get and what are my rewards for that? For which there are brands and there's positioning, and that's important, but there's a different, like real fandom, real loyalty means that you're part of their everyday life, that they are truly believe in the brand, in the values, in everything that we've already spoken about. And that loyalty is more of a relationship, it's more a sense of belonging, it's embedded in their community, and that loyalty is more long-term. My concern with the transactional is it's a moment in time, and there's a time and space for that, particularly when the economy is not great. But trying to take those who are just points collectors and move them into no, I actually firmly believe in this brand and I'm going to buy this band because of what they stand for and how I feel wearing the product, and because they see me, they recognize me, and they're doing good in my community, that's a totally different conversation.

Jen LaForge 25:46

It feels like we're circling back to the top of the conversation where we addressed the uh the values, your personal values and the values of the company can now outweigh the discount. Where is it safe to say 10 years ago that wasn't the case? A discount rolled king?

Lesley Hawkins 26:05

Was it different? And I think it sort of flows a bit with the economy, right? So coming out of 2008, definitely discounts were king. But now it's so much more than that. And I think the next generation, the Gen Zs, the Gen Alphas, they're demanding more of their brand and they're spending their money. And yes, they're not the biggest spenders yet, they're about to be. And so, because of that, I think over the last 10 years, that has changed significantly of how loyalty is being perceived and how brands are focusing on loyalty in a different way. Yes, there's point, and yes, you want to reward them for buying more product, but it's so much more than that. Can you bring them inside the ropes? Can they feel like their voice matters, that they're influencing the direction of the brand? Can you give them experiences that other people can't? And that's where, if we circle back to the Golden State Warriors as an example on that partnership, is there opportunities for your fans, your loyal customers, to now have behind the ropes access that they couldn't necessarily have before if they weren't loyal.

Jen LaForge 27:26

Right. That that speaks very well to a couple of episodes we've done where really talking about loyalty. Yes. Um, as it pertains to what does value mean to you? And value is different to anyone. That access, that exclusivity is value to a lot of people. So I love that. Thank you. We were talking a little bit earlier too about uh phone and phone cameras, yes. But but it got me thinking about you know, brands like Adidas, um, we talked about your global, you spend a ton of marketing dollars on um that funnel with the funnel with the funnel. But when it comes to those customers, um how important is the product? And this is where the camera goes in because every new phone version has a better camera or a better this, and so people, even if they don't need a new phone, are gonna buy that new phone because of the perceived improvements. When it comes to shoes, how valuable is that product changeup and new products and and what has to be different to get them to buy another pair sooner than they might need?

Lesley Hawkins 28:29

In the apparel footwear space, just like in the phone space, innovation is key, right? And so people often think, yeah, but a shoe is a shoe is a shoe, or a shirt is a shirt. Uh, it's so much more than that. And so there is a lot of money and time and resources put against what is the latest technology, what benefits are consumers looking for? And that's where it circles back a little bit to the loyalty, is listening to those loyal consumers. What do you actually want? What's important to you? If you're a runner, if you're uh, you know, training for a marathon, what's important to you is very different from somebody like me who's I'm I'm not running, I'm jogging. Very, very different world. And so the technology that I'm looking for is very different from a marathoner. And so it's making sure that you're really bringing in the latest, not only in materials, but in you know, underfoot cushioning, and you're listening to those consumers to make sure that your product is exactly what they want, and then some, right? There's technologies that are coming out that are brand new that consumers don't necessarily know. But there's things like embedding sustainability in products as well. So, how do you create a shoe that is fully circular in that as it comes to life when it goes into landfill that it actually degrades and so now becomes part of the soil and it's not a burden on the environment. So all of those technologies are also part of the conversation of and that I think it's all part of building the brand.

Jen LaForge 30:18

I feel like you're making me a major Adidas fan for this conversation, uh, which admittedly they're not my top shoe brand. Um, but what you just said really resonated for me. I'm gonna side quest here. I would have thought a shoe is a shoe is a shoe for the most part. I recently just bought uh a pair of shoes specific to HyRocks. Okay. And I've worn them twice. I'm trying to break them in. This entire conversation, I felt nothing but my caps. Yes, okay. They are a very different shoe and they are built with high innovation and purpose. And so that resonated more to me because I got to experience the innovation within a shoe that hasn't happened before. Correct. But admittedly, I'm gonna be looking at Adidas for my next pair. So thank you. You are another funnel that you're creating. Okay, so I wanna keep tying it back again within our space to loyalty. So I'm gonna ask you um when it comes to uh stack or skip, yes. Would you think that there is value? Should brands that don't have partnerships be leaning in here to drive loyalty, or should they skip that and move more towards those transactional points, loyalties? And is that dependent on the size of the marketing budget?

Lesley Hawkins 31:37

I would say you stack based on loyalty being emotional. If loyalty is purely transactional, I would skip it. Okay. Love that. You are not a big fan of that high transaction. I'm not. I like that. Because it's a it's a moment in time. And I think the moment you focus your loyalty on I'm going to discount my way or promo my way purely into gaining that consumer, that means that they they could get a better deal tomorrow. Right. Which means they're not actually loyal to your brand. And nor are you loyal to them. Right. Right? It's a two-way street. If it's truly an emotional loyalty and you're really tied in with the brand, then it's it's both ways, right? The consumers are holding the brand accountable, and the brand is doing everything they can to keep their values true with that consumer. So it works both ways.

Jen LaForge 32:36

Well, you just said gave me an immense sense of pride because our members at Rackton are loyal to Rakton and Cashback first before the brand loyalty. So seeing the strength at the loyalty with uh with brands, yes, um, knowing that our customers are so loyal to to Rakton and the cashback, not discounting loyalty to the brands at all, but some will will switch a brand over for the better cash back or the better offer and the better deal. It just speaks uh, I think, to the value that we're bringing. So thank you for that. Thank you for bringing me into the Adidas family, because I have a feeling I have a new pair of shoes coming. Fantastic. Very quickly. Do you have any friends and family? Ask your for a friend. Actually, well, it's my last question. I've been meaning to ask it um because it's been woven throughout this conversation in some ways, and that is referral friend, referral programs. Yes. Um, and and the last question, taking everything we've learned about the emotional side, the value side, that alignment. When it comes to a referral friend, generally our friends have similar values to us. Do they automatically extend, or is there something deeper there that needs to be considered in a referral program when it's so emotional based?

Lesley Hawkins 33:53

The best referral programs are those that are from friends, right? And you can buy all the advertising in the world, but particularly Gen Z, they are fully hooked in to I will listen to my friends, I will actually read reviews online, and I will believe strangers before I believe the brand, which is so crazy. But I think referral programs have to be a cornerstone of the loyalty program because people want human connection, they want to be part of something. And so if you're part of a community and you believe in the community and you share their values and you've had this sense of belonging, you're gonna want to bring in the rest of your friends and family into that. And so those those are the best referral programs you could have.

Jen LaForge 34:49

You're saying to me that those fans that you worked hard to create that fandom are essentially your influencers in real life. Absolutely. They're your brand ambassadors for life. I love that. I love that. There's so much value. Just I just gonna need a measurement on that tomorrow. Yes.

Lesley Hawkins 35:04

I'll get right back to you.

Jen LaForge 35:06

Perfect. Well, this has been a great conversation, a little bit different than what we normally talk about, but again, I just love how we we we touched on value as it means so much to so many different people. We talked about value within the sports, but I haven't asked you before you leave, how do you define value in your personal life? What is value to you?

Lesley Hawkins 35:27

Oh, that's a good question. Value is consistency, trust, and I'd say freedom. I don't know.

Jen LaForge 35:38

I love I love that we get a different answer. Everyone we ask, we get a different answer. I'd love that. Well, thank you so much for coming in. Let's go shopping. Okay, I'm in. Let's go. No problem at all. And that's it for this episode of Snacked. If you found this useful, follow along as we interview leaders shaping the future of retail and learn how value really works behind the scenes. And if there's a topic you want us to unpack, I'd love to hear from you. See you next time.