Jen LaForge 0:00

Good morning, Randy Weyersberg. Thank you for joining me today on Stacked. Very excited because for the first time, I think, in all of our episodes, we have a guest with over 40 years' experience. I'm not even going to try and encapsulate that. So I'm going to pass it over to you. Can you tell our audience a little bit about what a colorful, fantastic career you've had to this point?

Randy Weyersberg 0:23

Oh, thank you, Jennifer. I appreciate that. Um, so yes, 40 years. I sometimes I look back and I realize, wow, what happened and where am I at today? And yet my career continues. Um, I have um retired officially from the daily grind. I'm working for myself as part of a company that I've established most recently. But my the history of my career uh started uh in the 80s. Uh, and shortly after I graduated, I went to work for IBM. I was there for almost four years, and then I started a journey that getting closer to the consumer through different roles that I worked for for companies like at the time Unilever, then I went to work for Nabisco, which is now part of Mondelez. Uh, and I I find that the the chapters in my career were very disciplined, structured, fact-based, which was 17 years in the CPG realm. And then I jumped and went to a new industry, and that was when I went to Nike, and I had this tremendous uh opportunity to learn branding uh in a way that is done right. Uh, and and that carried me for the balance of my my career, but it also gave me a stepping stone into retail. I love retail. It's where the rubber meets the road. Uh, it's hard, it's dynamic, extremely competitive, both e-comm and also uh, you know, physical store. And I progressively worked into companies like Bell. Uh, they own the source. I was the same with what was brought on board. And then later went into gambling, uh, working for OLG, which had 750, sorry, 3,000 stores and um storefronts in particular. And then from there, I went into, I closed out my career working in beverage alcohol. Uh, wine. I love wine.

Jen LaForge 2:09

Okay. I mean, that is uh so many touch points. And we talked also a little bit earlier about the backbone of all that. You're a very technical guy, which doesn't always make sense with all these different lives and roles that you played to. So tell us a little bit about the tech component and that passion, how you brought it into this.

Randy Weyersberg 2:28

Yeah. So it's interesting. I've always been a numbers guy, a logic guy. In my family, we are uh we are retailers, we are marketers. Um and so I I've always had that at the backdrop, but in the forefront, um, at one point in uh when I was in doing my studies, I was thinking about uh finance. And so I ended up doing a double major in marketing and finance. So the numbers were there. And I originally came to Toronto and I got lucky. Um I was relocating originally from Montreal. So I was going to start my career in Toronto with my studies, and I ended up the job as a summer student at IBM, and that's when I just immersed myself in technology. And I remember the the story, uh, Rick Wall at the time who hired me. I says, Why did you pick me? I don't have any relatives working for IBM. He says, Randy, you were the only person who wrote a resume on blue paper, and we saw it in the stack uh and we pulled it out. That's our colors. And so you clearly understand corporate environment, uh, but I'm a technologist first and foremost, no question. And I learned that uh at IBM.

Jen LaForge 3:34

Okay. I I love that story of the blue paper. That's fantastic. I once got hired because under special skills, I actually put in my resume ability to leap over tall buildings in a single place. Oh, I love that. So yeah, it's sometimes it's those little things that just make people pause. And this was a long time ago, but the blue paper, I love it. Um, when we started this podcast, it was really about the loyalty space with e-commerce and partnerships and payments, with this mission to be helping everyday consumers and people within our space truly understand the value and how to stack it. And why I'm excited for you today is because we can talk about anything with your diverse background. But where I'm leaning is how incredibly exciting the time that we're in must be for you. With this background and that technology bone and AI. How do you feel about today? And let's go with retail that that rubber hits the road. What are your thoughts on where we are and where we're going? And how does that make you excited?

Randy Weyersberg 4:41

Yeah, I'm I'm uh really stimulated by the thought about what AI can do and the emergence of uh AI-powered Martech to really uh create a better connection in the commerce world. And that means whether you're B2B or B2C, making a connection with that target consumer. Uh it's interesting because um in my last 10 years of my career, I was really into the grind. Uh, the world got increasingly more complicated. C-suite are distracted a lot by external factors that they have no control on. And so the the the result is you're internally focused. Once I got out of the grind uh and I got out of the fog, as I call it, and this was just as early as six months ago when I retired, I realized the world of technology was speeding at a rate that was, even for a tech guy like me, was unprecedented. I would suggest to you that in the last two years, I've seen more technology than I experienced in the last 20 combined. And so it is fascinating. I am still digesting all of that technology and what it means, um, but I'm I'm immersing myself into it. And I think that's the first step. Uh, you you really need to understand the technology and marry that up with use cases or opportunities. And it's fascinating. And every day I have conversations on technology, um, and I have somebody else telling me that they are looking at it from a different, uh, different lens. And and that opens up your mind and you realize, oh my God, it's uh the potential is incredible. So for an organization like yours that is built off of technology, this is so empowering. Uh I remember 10 years ago, there were organizations. I don't know if Google still does this, but I so believe that you need to allow your employees to experiment, to explore, to, to search outside their office space and have that freedom to do it, uh, whether that's five minutes of your time, 10 minutes of your time, or 20% of your time. I think really uh you you need to give them that freedom to be curious and to and to ask themselves constantly what if. Uh and uh I do think great is coming, uh, and we can talk about some of those examples uh for sure.

Jen LaForge 6:59

Yeah, I I can't wait to get there. Um, agree with what you said is uh, you know, exploring and being creative and getting out there. For us as a tech company, it's really important because we have extremely high tenure in our employees. I mean, we're here seven, eight, ten, fourteen years together. Once you come, it's really hard to leave this space because we we love what we do. Um, but before we get to those examples, I wanted to ask you the speed we're at and and that overwhelming new technology every time you turn around. If I think back to the 80s, you had time to get things done. There was a new trend, a new direction, a new campaign. You kind of built a year or five years on that trajectory. Today, that trend is lasting 24 hours, 72 hours. How are marketers today able to find the right thing to lock on to, the right trend to jump on and run with it when tomorrow it's going to be completely done? I mean, how how do we market in today's world?

Randy Weyersberg 8:04

Yeah. I I think it's uh the way I would look at it, uh, you you can't assume a silver bullet. You can't just rely on one idea and and invest all your energy and time against it. Like an investment strategy, you're not quite sure where things will go. You want there's volatility, uh, there's uh there's the reality that you cannot predict everything. So what you need to do is create a portfolio of ideas. I really believe a lot uh in pilots. Pilots is a is a wonderful theme and concept. It has served me exceptionally well in the tech space. Uh the first thing about a pilot, it gives you permission to fail. And so uh, having been in the C-suite, and when I'm reporting to the board, I am very clear this is a pilot. Right away, everyone's relaxed. No one is holding you to it, a strict account. And I think that that's the mindset you need to have. Um, by the way, I love that you have tenure in your organization. They understand your business better than anybody else, and you need to nurture that knowledge and bring it forward. And sometimes there is this uh this belief amongst those who have that tenure. And I worked in an amazing organization, I'll declare it, it's a Crown Corporation, it was OLG, lots of tenure. And when I arrived there, I I saw that as a rich trove of expertise and capability. And um they they have so many ideas and they've been blocked so many times. I think there's an unleashing opportunity that exists today. Uh, and with technology and now with this freedom to do pilots and this freedom that says that you need to have a portfolio of what-if ideas in order to move fast. And and one last thought do not chase perfection. Uh, that is a that is a uh a sure thing to fail. You're wasting too much time, like you said, you need to get to market quickly. In my opinion, when you're starting a go-to-market uh strategy and plan from start to finish, should be six weeks. You should you should not be planning six months out. Uh, you should be giving yourself that flexibility to respond to a marketplace.

Jen LaForge 10:13

So with that in mind, obviously it's not realistic for all marketers because the way a lot of them are bred, they like a plan and they like to execute it on, and they think that they're they're on this path. Martec and AI and the speed is changing that. And so going against like fundamental grains of of long-term marketers. So thinking now we have six weeks, now a six-month plan, you know, how have you experienced or led people through that dynamic shift and how they're operating? Because that's an interesting point.

Randy Weyersberg 10:47

Yeah. So I it's actually that is the ambition. As a as a team lead, as a CMO who's overseeing large teams, you need to really think hard about how you're how you are structured to enable that. Um, I don't believe in pyramids. I believe in flattening out organizations. I believe being actively involved and being a cheerleader that is spotting ideas throughout the organization and encouraging them to go. Um, the I I'm a strong proponent of centers of excellence. Uh may not be for everybody. Uh, it has served me exceptionally well. To me, the concept of center of excellence is defining an accountability and saying you are the expert for that. And now we're running a four-man or four-woman relay race. And so who's got the baton and who's passing it to whom? Focus on the transition. Do not focus on the start or the finish. It's always in the in the transition that is critical. So for me, it's it's really about an an enable enablement capability. Uh, and I don't have all the ideas, but I can spot a damn good one fairly quickly. And then I know how to enable it. I know how to, you know, cut out the red tape, I know how to fast track, I know how to make someone feel like don't worry if it fails, right? That's the key, I think.

Jen LaForge 12:03

Yeah. Where we live in a society where failure is is such a terrifying thing. Um, that that being able to really create that culture where people know it's okay to stumble and fail, especially when you have, again, you know, 10 ideas that you're piloting or throwing at the wall, not all 10 are going to be, you know, those bangers that are gonna set the set the tone. So I love that. In the theme of our earlier chat about threading the needle, you mentioned you love data. So you actually said data before the tech component. Yes. Um, and they're they're tightly intertwined. Um, but where where would you say data has changed the most significantly in terms of where you started and where we're at? Um, and in particular as it pertains to like third party, because that wasn't necessarily a thing.

Randy Weyersberg 12:49

Yeah. Yeah. So uh uh data is is critical. Um I would say that the last 15 years of my career, it it dawned on me that the power I would have in the C-suite by having control on data. And so it's not just data on the consumer makeup. It's critical, very important. And the more you can get, the better. In my opinion, humbly, you can never have enough data. The issue is how do you process it and what do you do with it? Uh, and so I've witnessed in 15 years certain tools, Martech tools, uh, which allow you to better understand and correlate uh uh performance metrics. And so in the C-suite, you need to be able to talk ROI, you need to talk, you need to be able to talk about revenue and attribution. What are the efforts you're generating and what specifically is it contributing to the total? So the attribution uh concept. And um, you know, uh 15 years ago, I was using this cool called uh this tool called market mix modeling, very powerful. It's to me the holy grail uh for anyone who's commercially centric and wants to position uh commerce activity as a growth engine, and it has for me. Uh in 15 years, I've had my budget cut only twice. And in each and every single time, I was able to actually increase my budget. So the confidence in that data and representing that data in a way that is understood at the board level is critical. So uh, but here's the point the the the engine uh that drives that data has only been perfected and improved, and today is just now being integrated with AI. So if you think of a suite of a data leak, garbage in, garbage out, right? It's so important to have not just primary data components, such as, okay, uh, you know, what what is my revenue week after week after week, what's my pricing, um, and then what's uh, you know, what's the market share is is perhaps a different collective, or what's my competitors doing is A and then B. But you need C. C is how do you correlate those two in terms of the activities you've done and where your your your math is for your ROI? And now what you do is you that is part of the data lake on which uh your whole AI or your H agentic AI sits on top.

Jen LaForge 15:16

Right.

Randy Weyersberg 15:16

So to me, MMM um is the brain of your AI. Without it, in in my opinion, it's you have a tremendous amount of shortcomings. And so I I do believe in data. I'm I'm very quant, um, and and I know that I'm successful when I look at the CFO, I explain myself, and then they turn to you and say, I understand what you're saying. You know, and then they throw in, you don't talk like the average uh CMO, right? And I love that because uh in the C-suite, you you're not about just promoting creative. You're you're you're promoting an ideal around growth and the and an engine that will that will take this company as a partner at the C-suite to that next level, right?

Jen LaForge 16:03

Yeah, that's right. So many questions. I'm gonna put a pin on the MMM because that's a hot topic in our industry on the affiliate side right now. But just to what you were saying about you don't talk like a normal CMO. You've got data. You're talking about ROI. Um, that brings to the world of brand marketing and performance marketing. And brand, those CMOs are constantly saying, no, I do need a little bit more. No, I don't have numbers for you. You just have to believe because what we're doing is immeasurable. And that's the hardest part of a CMO's life is is just not being able to quantify. Yeah. So what do you think? Um, how do you balance as a marketer the performance side and the brand side and that abundance of data in Claire KPIs with this big unknown, have faith it's working measurability.

Randy Weyersberg 16:56

Yeah. So I I I I've spent a lot of time explaining this to the board. Um, and I I refer to the concept of yin and yin. So you have brand and performance. Both need to work together. Um, and and and there is an overlap between the two, I think increasingly more so today. It there used to be, well, brand advertising had a certain tone, a certain look, uh, and a certain medium. Television historically had been identified as that's a brand medium. I don't believe that to be the case anymore. Like the mediums have so advanced uh and uh and and and have and you can you can cut down TV into 10 seconds and now all of a sudden becomes a performance medium. And I've used it very effectively that way. The key is knowing when to deploy brand messaging versus uh performance messaging, and sometimes both in the same medium. I know this is blasphemy for some agencies. They say, no, no, stick to one message. I have been so successful combining the two in certain mediums. And so um uh, you know, just for everyone to understand, the way I look at brand, to me, brand is a motive. Uh, it's your right brain. Uh, the performance is your proof point, right? Uh no one's gonna, I mean, people do go from uh emotional thinking to rational thinking in their decision process. It's not always emotional. So you need to be able to bridge to it, which is why I like a call to action, even in branded advertising. Um, so it's it's it's it's really important to understand that these two work together in an ecosystem.

Jen LaForge 18:37

I love that. And I don't hear a lot of people talking about that working together ecosystem and overlap of the two. They seem sometimes very staunchly opposite and competitive. So thank you for that clarity. I do want to go back to the MM model. And and I'm not sure how deep you can go on this or your opinion, but in a world like ours within the affiliate space, the MM model does not necessarily work. What can you you say to that model and how you're using it within the affiliate world, or have you used it to measure in the affiliate space? And what are what's the difference uh between that and perform measuring performance elsewhere?

Randy Weyersberg 19:15

Yeah, I there are a lot of vehicles, go-to-market vehicles that are challenged to be measured in the in the conventional MMA. Uh, I will suggest to you that today there are companies that are not widely known. It's not your Cantar, not your AC Nielsen, um, who have broken the code on this. Um, they just don't have the awareness uh amongst large organizations. I'm in the process right now of meeting the CEOs of some of the top 10 CPG companies uh in the world today. Um we had a meeting last week. I've got two more in the next two weeks. They're all asking, how are we breaking the uh you know that code? And so I will suggest to you uh that uh it's possible uh and it's new technology now. So here are some other examples of what's not which is difficult to measure, but the code has been broken and now we can do it. Um organic influencer um you know investment. So when you think of paid media and many cons uh companies like Unilever are moving their dollars into organic uh influencer investment, which is basically user-generated uh content. Uh and you're you're paying a flat fee for that influencer to create content and then to post it on their platform with the reach that they have. Very difficult to measure it with traditional women. We have solved for that. Uh retail media, um, Amazon, Walmart, Loblaws, they all have their own platforms around retail media. Very difficult from the outside looking in to try and measure that. Affiliate is an example of that, I think, and it is possible. Uh the signals are so much more sophisticated and the cape and the capabilities are so much more sophisticated. Best an example I can give you. Think of, and I I remember when I had my transistor radio, I only perhaps could pick up uh, you know, 10 stations. But my dad, uh, he had uh that that radio that sat in the kitchen. He could pick up a thousand stations. Uh he had 10 bands on it. That's the difference in the technology 15 years ago to today on MMM. So it's possible. It's uh it just need to work at it uh and work with the right partner to get at it.

Jen LaForge 21:32

We would wholeheartedly agree with you in the affiliate space. It's possible. It does have to be broken and re-engineered to fit with our model because it's not the same. Um, and so my ask to you and all of your conversations going forward, please continue to tell that story and to help unlock the code for us. Um, because you're right, it's not something uh that a lot of large companies are thinking about and they're using the standard model and making big decisions. Um but it it doesn't fit fit the needs.

Randy Weyersberg 22:03

I I I love that you shared that. And uh it is it is a fact in the marketplace and this is a perfect example of how technology is moving so fast. Folks in the C suites are at the moment cannot keep up. They do not have the bandwidth, and so they're going on the assumption that this has not been solved when in fact it has been, right?

Jen LaForge 22:24

Yeah. Yep. It has been solved. It just has not been shared.

Randy Weyersberg 22:28

Exactly.

Jen LaForge 22:28

Um it's kind of gatekeeping on this. But uh, I think if this was to open up, I think a lot of companies would find a lot stronger return and be making very different decisions if they're using the right model.

Randy Weyersberg 22:41

I agree.

Jen LaForge 22:42

Perfect. I'm glad we we got that out in the air. Yeah. Uh that's a big one for us in our industry.

Randy Weyersberg 22:47

So there's so many blind spots right now, right? It's uh so yeah, that story needs to be told. Um, and uh I'm working with so many, uh, so many vendors of media who are trying to tell their story. And uh it's interesting, right? It really is interesting. And uh you you just need discipline and a and a committed partner to to unlock that code. Uh it's like the Enigma machine, right? Uh eventually they uh they figured it out, uh, it's there, and now they can they can uh do appropriate attribution for it.

Jen LaForge 23:21

It's like those aha moments where you wake up one day and everything makes sense and it kind of clicks and then you're a little embarrassed. Yeah. Um so it's funny. What I find funny um is that we're in this world where we have more data than we've ever had. Now we're able to process all this data in faster and and more advanced ways than we ever have. And so we should have all of the answers and everyone should be, you know, aware of these changes. But it feels as though we still, despite all of this, have less answers and more questions, and there's still gatekeeping and holes, and we're still having these wake-up aha moments. Why do you think that is? And is that just something fundamental about us as humans that will never change, regardless of how we adopt evolved?

Randy Weyersberg 24:08

There will always be naysayers. Um I I refer to that concept as the inconvenient truth. And so there are um there are privileges uh in how budgets are being allocated today uh that suit certain interest groups, and they will defend that. Um and so I think that gets in the way. That they will undermine uh the you know the data. I've experienced that extensively, um, but I've always uh you know uh persisted. Um it it gave me an a reason and an opportunity to tell the story better, uh, to get my facts in order, uh, and then to present and uh to you know to the key stakeholders that make the decisions. Uh in my case, as a C-suite member, it was the board. And so once you built that trust, um you're you're now in Greenfield, but it's getting out of the woods that's really difficult. And and there is there's good reasons to you know to question, especially new technology, new capability. Um I uh, you know, with uh MMM, for instance, I've always had people say, I do not understand the concept. I don't know why, how can technology distinguish between a pricing action versus a you know a television action? And it's complicated, right? It's uh you that's why you need a statistician in the room, a technologist in the room to explain the confidence level and how this is created. I remember the first project I worked on, and I'm such a geek on on data. First project I worked on at IBM in the summer of 1982 was a regression analysis of where we were going with paper use. And like we had an average of two and a half computers on every desk at IBM at the time. This was before Windows. And so every time you had a system, you had a different terminal. But yet, use of paper was going up. And so I was tasked to figure out where is this gonna end, right? Uh, and I used a regression analysis. That's the tools that you use today, still, uh, as one of the underpinnings of MMM.

Jen LaForge 26:14

I got to ask you later um to go back and find out if the work you did on determining what was happening with paper was accurate. Did did you forecast what was happening with paper?

Randy Weyersberg 26:27

Um You know the reality of that? It's human behavior because people were learning to live with computers, but they still wanted a printed report.

Jen LaForge 26:36

And I think that's true. I still you I still use a printer and a lot of paper in my life right now.

Randy Weyersberg 26:42

Yeah, even though we're all digital, right? And we have so many screens.

Jen LaForge 26:45

Yeah, there's there's probably a whole other conversation around the psychology of consumption of data and information. Uh, but Dunder Mifflin is safe for now, I think. Um so Randy, we were talking earlier. I mean, you've got such a uh colorful, beautiful, exciting career, but you did admittedly say like you are not one to go into the depths of loyalty, which is completely fine and fair. Um, but I am in the world of of loyalty. So I actually am curious to ask you, as a uh a veteran in in all things marketing, but also a consumer that can't go deep. When you see loyalty programs marketing, what's one thing that really stands out that you think that's really cool about marketing in the loyalty space? And one thing that you think, why do why do people do that in the loyalty space? Like that doesn't make sense. What's your perspective there? So from the outside, yeah as a as a man.

Randy Weyersberg 27:41

So I I'm I'm registered with loyalty programs. Um the ones that appeal to me are the ones that are frictionless and simple, right? And so I mean, I'll I'll just share. I went uh it was a year ago I went to the LCBO and they asked me right then and there, would you like to use your points to redeem against your purchase? I was like, what? Wow, what a concept, right? And so to me, uh frictionless and uh, you know, and convenience is uh in any form uh in the loyalty program, I think is is very powerful. Um I don't know what it is, but I buy a lot of things uh and and I I spend quite a bit of money. And so I'm I'm very mindful about the points that I'm collecting. And for me, what matters uh is uh our trips, right? And so I wanna and I want control on the trip that I wanna I wanna invest in uh or purchase and the location and the flexibility of going when I want. So I I don't want resistance, I don't want any friction uh in in me being able to capitalize uh on my reward program. So I I love that, right? To me, that's uh that's what I like. What I don't like is when you're asking me, you know, to jump through hoops, I feel like each time I'm about to use points or startup point program, I feel like I'm having to do schoolwork, like homework, right? Like what am I doing, right? And I I I resist that, right? I make it easy for me. Frictionless. Um, so uh and and that that's not just in the reward pro uh, you know, space. Um I I think of that in all my interactions that are uh you know commercial in in uh in in in their frame, right? Make it easy for me to get what I want, when I want it, and how I want it.

Jen LaForge 29:35

Somebody get this guy a big fat check, like stat. You'd be loyal for life, and you said you shop a lot. So um you do have a rack chin account?

Randy Weyersberg 29:46

I do.

Jen LaForge 29:47

That was a risky question for me. Like what to be said no.

Randy Weyersberg 29:51

I do have one.

Jen LaForge 29:52

I mean, who doesn't have a rack chin uh account? Um so curious then. Um I I think we're pretty simple. It's a click, we draw the tracking, we pay you. Yeah, um on a scale of one to ten, where where would you rate rack chin?

Randy Weyersberg 30:06

I'd probably think it's an eight and a half. That's uh what I would think. It's um uh it was very frictionless. Uh I enjoyed the experience. Um I remember when I signed up, there was some great post-sign-up uh encouragement and uh tools and facilities to help me feel conf uh confident and comfortable using the the reward program. I like that. I want I I want somebody to hold my hand along the way, uh especially in the early days. Um I'm while I'm a marketer and very curious and willing to experiment, um, as a consumer, I'm still cautious, right? And I'm and there's still some degree of reluctance. And so if you can uh empower me and make me feel confident, I'm all there, right? And then Rakutin did that for me.

Jen LaForge 30:53

You um thank you for that. Um we're gonna put a little bonus in your account. The but where you you made me think about something I thought about earlier. Um, and that is a there's yeah, we get labels, ever everybody does this, but like marketers are sometimes thought as very evil, right? And they're trying to manipulate you to do things that you didn't you don't necessarily want to do. But you know, I talk to marketers who, you know, within a company are usually the ones who care most about the customers and taking care of the customers and giving them what they want and protecting, you know, those touch points. Um, so I think it's it's fair to say that you guys are not evil. But but where where does marketing get a little evil? And have you seen that? Um, and what do you do with it when you see it?

Randy Weyersberg 31:44

Yeah, marketing does uh on occasion uh get a bad rap. Um over my career, I think direct marketing at some time had that. Um it it just takes one story to spoil it for everybody else. And often you hear that story over and over again. Um, I'm like you. I believe that you know, people who are in marketing uh in the space that I occupy, uh, I feel very committed to doing what's right. And I feel very committed to really cheerleading the business and the and the operation. Um not every organization uh is clean, uh, and I think that's a question about leadership and how they encourage employees to really follow the values of the organization and to really meet the requirements of the of the consumer in a way that's honest and genuine. Uh so that's about people then rather than a profession. Um there one comment I will make, and and I I feel this today. I worked in the CPG industry and and and um some of the you know product formulation improvements that we were doing around food at the time, we thought we were doing the right thing. And I realized today, uh, and I'm a foodie and I love food and I and and I I cook extensively at the grocery store. One lady behind me says, I want to go to your house because I love cooking. And and I realize um uh if I knew then what I know today, I think I'd do something different, right? And and so you're you're caught up in a wave, this is like 30, 40 years ago, in a wave of understanding of of what's the context then. So I don't think anyone is malicious in terms of what they're doing and what they're promoting. We are all learning together and we're all moving as as human beings uh in trying to do the best, right? And that's how I would uh I would say that you know marketers really do want to do the right thing. And and and and at the end of the day, brands are built on trust. You erode that trust, you lose the faith of of your customer, and you will pay the price. And so beware.

Jen LaForge 33:54

So I'd love that answer. And I fundamentally believe we're in our wave. And 30 years from now, they're gonna be talking about all the terrible things that we're doing. Um, although I don't think anyone will complain that we just give people money.

Randy Weyersberg 34:07

I don't think so.

Jen LaForge 34:09

Um so so we're not doing anything malicious, but I do want to touch on a sensitive topic within the marketing world, and it's tying in um AI and the speed and the capabilities with trust and consumers and the wave and all of it kind of combined. But what we're seeing is very scary in TikTok shops and online with these D2Cs or these products coming out, and we are relying on reviews and testimonies from real people, but there's fake reviews, there's fake products, and you know what? They don't have to care about retention because if they get a million people to buy this crappy product, it's all pure profit. Yeah. And then they can just turn around and do it to another product. And so that's where marketing is really evil. And I'm seeing that going rampant everywhere. And it's actually hurting consumer trust for a lot of companies and brands that are really caring about their actual customers. So is there, you know, from your perspective in your world in this wave we're in, you know, what caution or advice can you give to our consumers who keep falling into these traps? Like, how can you be more discerning about who cares?

Randy Weyersberg 35:24

Yeah. So by the way, I think AI is going to help with that. Um I think that it'll be a lot harder for these tricksters, if you want, to game the system. Uh AI, you know, uh is is really redefining how it gives credentials to brands and and and it's not just one source, two source, three source, it's thousands of sources in an algorithm that creates confidence, right? And so it it's not like the it's if you think of the bully um or or the person who speaks the loudest, that's yesterday's world. And I think those are those are examples of what you're talking about. It's it's borderline criminal, right? They're manipulative, uh, and those are behaviors that I think will be put in check by AI. Um so you have to be aware of it. I'm I'm confident that AI is gonna help with it. Um, but I think consumers continuously have to be aware, right? That uh, you know, um trust, but verify. Uh how many times have I heard that from a board, right? We trust you, but we want to verify. Can you give us the stats? Can you give us the you know the data? Can you give us the quant? I think we always have to have that buyer-beware mentality.

Jen LaForge 36:39

Yeah. You know what you made me think of the Canadian hippo. Do you remember the hippo? Canadian hippo was a commercial that came out, I think, in the 80s. Okay. And it was all about the house hippo. And it was like a story about the house hippo and how it lives. And then at the end, it was uh it it the message was about just being more discerning in what you're believing. Yes. Um, and so it was like we were advertising to Canadians, like be more discerning in advertising. You know that a house hippo, which was this cute little hippo.

Randy Weyersberg 37:11

Yes, I remember now, and that's what you're describing. Yes, I'm at the house.

Jen LaForge 37:14

So that's what you're making me think of that you know, we need the house hippo to come back and remind consumers to be safe.

Randy Weyersberg 37:20

Yes. And and and uh again, yeah, uh what I'm sharing is that technology is an is an enabler, but there's always someone looking the game. I I remember the first time I saw ratings and reviews, I think it was in 2007 on a product. And I was like, my jaw dropped. I like, wow, this is powerful. And I remember at the time, uh in 2009, I was working uh at Bell the Source. I was the CMO there. And um uh my boss at the time was very open to technology, a seasoned veteran in the retail industry. Uh, and we we brought this capability. I'm not the one who found it, it was the technologist in the business. And uh we brought it in the room, and um the head merchant at the time said, Why would I want to do that? They're gonna, you know, consumers are gonna judge me for the decision I made. And my boss at the time said, that's exactly how we're gonna hold you accountable by through the voice of the customer. And I love that, right? And so, and of course, somebody figure out how to game ratings and reviews, but I think uh we we need to we need to we need to have faith that technology can can continue to do what's uh what's right and help the consumer make better choices.

Jen LaForge 38:34

Yeah, I think faith is a survival mechanism. Yeah. Um and I also, funny thought from earlier um was just the comfort that I found in the speed of technology right now. And by that I mean if I step away for a couple of days and I'm not staying on top of what's happening and I come back three days later and I lean in again. Well, I haven't missed anything because we're well past that. And so there to me is a bit of a comfort in you don't have to stay on every minute of every day because you just have to keep up in leaps and bounds on where we're going. And so that's how I've been managing. Um and and now I'm gonna couple it with more faith. Um, but I wanna overall, uh I feel as like a lot of our conversation, and you're the authority on this, is trust on marketing in this high data AI technical, logical advancement, speed of light world. It's the worst description possible. I love it. So forgive me. It's come it, it's it's happening, it's all evolving fast. Um, but I mean, uh just how can consumers be more discerning and and trust certain marketing and and be more you know wary of others? Like what pointers and like actual takeaways can you give our consumers today?

Randy Weyersberg 39:54

Yeah, so uh we live in a brand world. Um, you know, when when you think of relationships and um your network, your surrounding, your community, you build trust slowly and over time. I think that's that's how uh companies need to understand it, that's how the trust is built with them. Um, and that you need to invest in that trust as a company. Uh and you you need to be very clear about the value system that you you represent and and be uh and be demonstrating that time and time again. I I remember um that Michael Eisner, I think it was, at Disney, made the comment that trust is built one gesture at a time. And um and and and through those gestures, there there is also erosion because not you cannot control everybody. You can just channel the energy. And so as an organization, you need to be aware that uh how you're building that trust, but also as a consumer, you need to look for the signals that that that matter to you and and where you align with that brand. Um I uh I I love it when I uh when I think of some of the campaigns I've worked on uh that were very powerful. Um and and then and they're not every campaign. Um the ones that come to mind is when I was at Nike, uh when I worked at Mars on the pet food business, uh, and then at uh at OLG. There were there was a in each of those three organizations there was tremendously strong leadership, and they understood the power of trust and they understood those brands uh and wanted to truly, genuinely go overboard to do right. And so that empowers a marketer to do the right thing and gives them the freedom to do things that uh you would uh you would step into that you may not otherwise do. So um I don't know, it's it's a it's it's a complex matrix that has a consumer side and a and a business side to it. And somehow you find your way, and that's and I think that then you create this win-win dynamic for both the consumer and business. I really believe in that.

Jen LaForge 42:11

It it almost feels like through that complex matrix, if you have that North Star, and that North Star is really caring and protecting about your customers, um, that you can navigate it.

Randy Weyersberg 42:23

Absolutely. Uh, you know, it's funny you say the North Star. In each of those companies, they had the North Star. And it was very well articulated. Uh and and and and it's one thing to articulate, it's one that it's ingrained in the fabric. Um, you know, Mars, the the at the time that I was there, Jackie Forrest and John were in the business and and and they walked the talk, right? And so you need to understand how do you bring that to life. You can't always have uh, you know, a family member or owner of a business do that. Uh Phil Knight did it at Nike, right, when I was there. Uh and so it's uh it's powerful, but that North Star is really the the the fundamental of it. No question. Sounds it sounds trivial, it's not. And it really makes a difference.

Jen LaForge 43:11

Yeah, it's funny. We tend to dismiss trivial things, but time and again, the proof's in the pudding. So um I subconsciously knew all of those uh those companies had a North Star. So um, as do we. Um so Randy, uh one of the challenges I have when I have a wonderful guest that I can talk to about a thousand things um for a thousand hours is that we don't have a thousand hours uh and we can't talk about a thousand things. So unfortunately, we're out of time and we didn't touch on half of what I wanted to touch on with you, but I really loved your perspective and how we could kind of marry that evil misperception marketing side more with the consumer journey to help people navigate what's happening out there through AI and and maintain that trust. So thank you for bringing your wealth of experience. I may ask you to come back. Actually, I will right now, please come back. Um, and we'll talk some more. But thank you again for coming. And if there's one last uh tip or advice on this topic that you want to give to the audience, now's your time. And if you can't think of anything, just maybe tell every CEO out there to look at the MMM model for me.

Randy Weyersberg 44:21

Yeah, certainly look at the MMM. Um, it has been the feather of my calf for 15 years. Uh I'm known as the guy who brought MMM and marketing in so many companies. Um, but I I if there's one thought I would leave with with the audience, and I I think it holds true for anyone. Uh, it could be business leaders, could be, you know, teams as a as a collective and consumers, just be curious, right? I mean, we are in a very unique time and space. Um one regret I have is that I'm I'm I'm at the clearly in the end of my career. I wish it was at the beginning. I get goosebumps just thinking about what that next generation uh has to work with, right? And and truly marketing is an art and a science. Science is ruling now, right? And it's has that opportunity. And so be curious about it.

Jen LaForge 45:13

I love that. Feels like a life lesson too. Be curious. And that's it for this episode of Stack. If you found this useful, follow along as we interview leaders shaping the future of retail and learn how value really works behind the scenes. And if there's a topic you want us to unpack, I'd love to hear from you. See you next time.