Jen LaForge 0:00

Anshal, welcome to Stacked. I'm excited for you today because you come in with a travel perspective and we talked earlier about my love of travel. I was in the travel space. I also travel a lot and wish I could travel more. So very excited. So my audience knows exactly what we're talking about or who we're talking about today. Can you give us uh just a brief intro into Points Miles and Bling and maybe where that name came from?

Anshul Singh 0:25

Absolutely. Uh my name is Anshul. I'm Points Miles and Bling is my company. Uh Bling is basically a nod to the luxury quotient of travel that we initially wanted to tackle. So this is a travel media company uh that uh did uh loyalty program assessment. Uh so we would uh talk about loyalty programs, dissect every piece of it and see which one fits best for who, who's the audience, what's the best value proposition in one loyalty program versus the other. And uh yeah, oftentimes it's about finding the sweet spot in each loyalty program and how people can leverage that towards luxury travel. And because the end goal was always luxury travel, that's where the bling comes from, and hence uh yeah, luxury bling. Bling bling. Bling bling indeed.

Jen LaForge 1:08

So loyalty and luxury don't often go well together, or there tends to be a perception that loyalty or discounts or deals or points cheapens. Uh, and maybe that's not the right word, but um, there's there's we've found a disconnect there. Would you see that in your space, or how how do the luxury travel brands consider loyalty and the space outside of their own programs?

Anshul Singh 1:38

Yeah, loyalty really uh was coined out of uh the hotel and airline industry, which wanted repeat customers, uh, which wanted those same customers and wanted to give back something to that uh ideal customer for them, and ideal being who pays you the most, who engages with your brand the most and such. Uh over the years it's sort of radically changed, where now in 2026 we are seeing more and more of these airline and loyalty programs really cater to people that would want to engage through their dollars. So it's no longer about how many flights you uh fly, uh often no longer about how many nights you stay at hotels, it's how much money you're spending while you're there. Uh so somebody, uh let's let's take our example. I could be a person that stays 50 nights in a particular hotel chain, and you for your lifestyle, you only spend 15 nights. But in your 15 nights, you're spending about the same money that I'm spending because I'm being frugal on my end. Uh, your loyalty is more important to that loyalty brand, if that makes sense.

Jen LaForge 2:40

That makes perfect sense.

Anshul Singh 2:41

So as we are uh as we have gone well past this COVID era, I think every loyalty program, particularly on the travel aspect, is uh now uh tweaked their product line to a point where uh if they see dollar value engagement, that's the customer that they want. And it's not to say that uh the low dollar value customer doesn't matter to them because the student that's 18-year-old, 18-year-old student right now is still uh equally important because they will be 25, 30 year olds making the money and will have the affluence too. So they want that continuity. So we are definitely seeing uh sort of pay more, play more kind of thing on the higher end and the lower end of that funnel, or the starting end of that funnel rather, uh the barrier to entry is almost non-existent now. Um, programs have made it super easy uh to at least walk into that loyalty ecosystem. Uh, and then they're working terribly hard on the other end to keep your loyalty, to keep your dollar loyalty uh within that program.

Jen LaForge 3:41

And what I also heard is there's a nurture as well, similar to what a lot of uh we had a guest, uh the former VP at Adidas come on talking about fandom and how you know that 16-year-old isn't necessarily the best customer, but they love that brand for their whole lives and eventually will be the best customer. So it sounds like they're doing both ends of the spectrum and a nurture right in the middle. Yeah.

Anshul Singh 4:05

That nurture piece is really coming from what now they call uh experience-based loyalty. Uh so they want to offer these sweet spots, these uh valuable experiences uh that are not necessarily just for those that have the uh high dollar amount to spend. It could be for anybody else. I can give you an example if you don't mind me dropping a brand name. Uh Marriott Bonvoy does a thing called a one-point drop. Uh, it's a very exclusive niche experience, and the value of uh you buying that is one point, one Marriott Bonvoy point. Uh in the real world, that one point is maybe uh less than a cent value, uh, but uh it allows a lot of engagement from members. And if you end up getting one of those packages for one point drop, that becomes your story. That becomes that member story, and that's the emotional hook that makes them loyal to a particular brand. Um, so yeah, we are seeing a lot of these uh companies and loyalty programs uh allow these emotional hooks throughout that journey, no matter where you are in that journey of being a newcomer into the program or being somebody that's like has been dropping dollars for a couple of decades on them.

Jen LaForge 5:13

So that's really interesting because that emotional hook you're talking about is really unique in travel. Because that one point, which is really one penny or a very low value, for whatever reason, consumers tend to put so much value on that one travel point. And that is worth more than say two dollars cash back. What's going on there psychologically or emotionally, can you speak to that? Or do you have any guesses on why that phenomenon is so expansive?

Anshul Singh 5:44

Uh so there's a few facets to that. Uh one of the biggest thing is the psychological aspect of it is loyalty programs are developed to make you do irrational things within the program, which is if I feed to you that my point is worth a certain value, uh, then until you reach that value or until your mind thinks you are getting that value, you won't use that point. Uh so now what we are seeing is for years, uh, before this, or for decades, uh, there was always a consistent end goal as to, or the uh goalpost rather, right? That didn't move. You just knew that you had to sort of earn 10,000 points, and whatever you were trying to do will be unlocked through these 10,000 points. Over the time, as loyalty programs have gone more revenue-based, this uh goalpost keeps moving. It could be 10,000 right now, it could be 15,000 a month from now because of dynamic pricing, because of just how the market is pricing that particular uh thing that you're trying to get. Uh so what that does is one, it's sort of that completely irrational behavior is sort of quelled down a bit because people now are starting to understand that yes, this is a certain value, uh, but that value can change. So often in our world of points and miles, we call it earn and burn. If you have the points, just use them right now because it's almost like a depreciating asset. You, if it's sitting in your wallet for no reason, uh the value is going to be very different, even like 10 days from now or 20 days from now. Uh, the other piece that's really uh tagging along to that is uh the dynamic pricing uh that I had mentioned earlier. Uh so that plays a huge role. Uh and over the over time, we've what we've also seen is as the goalposts have started moving, uh people have reacted online, everywhere else, saying that, hey, I thought my points uh were worth this, now they are worthless, or whatever that degree of disappointment was. Uh so loyalty programs are getting really good at having many goalposts in that journey. So no longer is it the case that your airline point is only meant for you to fly. Your airline point can be meant for buying a coffee, your airline point can be meant for ordering through Uber, uh, through Skip, or whatever you're doing, or through a retail program. Uh, so we are now seeing a lot more retail partnerships being built into the loyalty program, even though the value of that point initially at the conception of it is an airline uh point, but it can be used everywhere from retail to uh a cashback or even a statement credit or whatever you want it to be. So now that one goal post in each loyalty program has become 10. So you have a lot more choice. And then, of course, uh websites like us or uh people like us that talk about these things are often talking about where is the best value, which goalpost has the best value.

Jen LaForge 8:33

Yes.

Anshul Singh 8:34

Right. So to give a very crude example, uh an airline point will give you the best value if you're flying it, even though it allows you to use it for statement credit, it allows you to buy coffee. And as much as you can do that, the best value might perhaps still be flying. But that's the kind of thing that we constantly analyze in terms of what are these individual partnerships. Let's dissect them and see if there is value prop uh remaining there. And now we know uh airline programs that have their own e-stores that are allowing you to earn points uh through retail shopping, through online shopping. So that that scape has changed drastically, I would say, in the last 10 to 15 years.

Jen LaForge 9:11

Yeah, it's really accelerating as well. I mean, very similar that we've seen in the gift card space where gift cards are becoming a currency, loyalty points are becoming a currency on their own as well. Um, and that I think is happening, I think, a lot quicker even than on the gift card side. So um very interesting and insightful. Um when it comes to not having multiple goal posts. I mean, there's still programs out there that are just one for one. I think we're actually seeing their success erode and shrink. What is that doing for others who are building out these goalposts? Is it really flipping the industry around or is it not a big enough storm yet?

Anshul Singh 9:54

I think horses for courses comes to mind uh simply because it's the type of customer you are. Now there's a lot, it's a lot more democratized in the sense that if you wanted to, in that previous, perhaps not the best example, but previous example, if you wanted to use it for coffee, that's your value system. You use it for coffee and you'd still come out a happy customer because maybe your lifestyle doesn't allow you to travel. Uh for the strict goalpost items that continue to remain like uh remain such, uh I'm thinking uh credit cards, cashback items, cashback portals, and things like that, uh, that's great because those programs need to exist because in the traditional sense of the airline, in the I'm talking about the travel funnel. In the traditional sense of loyalty program, it was always meant to be a very straightforward if I do A plus B, I'll get C. But 2026 reality is uh it's A plus B and all the way through to Z kind of variables that you need to know and understand. And as much as uh people like us and uh services like us talk about those variables and how to think about it, oftentimes the best customer, uh the best loyalty program for a customer is the one that doesn't need mental gymnastics. Right. Like if I simply know that I use my credit card here, this is the point I get, and I'm gonna redeem it here. Just a three-step simple process. Uh, that kind of value prop is huge. Uh, not just here in Canada, around the world, we are seeing that. Cashback websites are some of the easiest ones to think of uh in that model. And then, of course, there is a group of people that like the gamification, that like the fact that it's a bit of a hunt for them. And that's our core audience, our core readership is that uh they want to go through that hunt process and find that real gem uh within that ecosystem of uh the crazy airlines partnerships, local partners, international partners, flying business class, first class, uh which which route gives me the best value? Uh so there's yeah, there's uh audiences everywhere, but I think uh for the vast majority, the simple thought process continues to be the best way, uh best way to engage and best way to redeem your program, and which is essentially once what there were loyalty programs that were intentionally convoluted at some point. Uh, once they realized there were so many logistics involved in a happy in going from a customer to a happy customer, they realized that and made quite a few redemptions, let's say, possible, uh, which did not need so much mental gymnastics. They have made that available to them. Uh, but every program is not one thing. It's it can be many things, depending on who is using it.

Jen LaForge 12:29

So it sounds like it's a very fine line and a careful evolution with consumer behavior within the space overall. And really understanding your audience. Now, for clarity, did you say it is your customer base that loves that gamification? 100%. And so how do you serve that customer um on Points Mile Sampling?

Anshul Singh 12:50

Uh yeah, uh by talking about the minutia of every program and where things lie. Uh now I'm just trying off the top of my head, I'm thinking uh there is a really nice sweet spot in the way Aeroplan, for example, Air Canada are great partners. Uh they have intentionally left some good nuggets in the system, but you have to jump a few hoops and loops uh to get there. So somebody flying on a partner airline going to Asia and then into Australia, uh, that is a far better value and usage if you were flying in business class or first class, as opposed to flying that direct flight from Canada into Australia. That's just one example of many. Uh, and the fact that you can use the same point and try so many of the products uh differently for most people. For the vast majority of uh the people that read, the easiest way of using, say, an aeroplane point is to redeem them for an Air Canada flight, which is the most direct and the most sort of, if I can say that, the most sensible routing. Uh but if you wanted to enjoy a stop over in Hong Kong for three days and then go on to Australia and then enjoy Australia for the same number of points, you get a lot more in return as a traveler. So that that's just one of the things that I can think of in terms of so that yeah, those are the kinds of things we write about, we explore uh with our audiences, and that's what they're looking for in in a loyalty program.

Jen LaForge 14:12

So you've got this bling side, the luxury side. How many luxury travelers are willing to take that 2 a.m. flight or the three-day layover in Hong Kong? I mean, are do you see distinct beh different behaviors between your luxury and non-luxury shoppers? And how do you gamify between the two?

Anshul Singh 14:34

Yeah, uh, we definitely see that. How do we gamify? Uh, there is from a loyalty program perspective, I'm just gonna give you the brand side first and then maybe talk about our own clientele and how we deal with the other aspects. Uh from a loyalty program perspective, they are always looking to tap into that 10% of the market that is going to enjoy the fruits. They know when they keep these nuggets, as I call them, uh available to use. Perhaps 10% of the membership is going to use it. So it's not a value loss to them because that 10% is the loudest 10% chest thumping online saying, hey, look what I did with my X point, Y point, or whatever points they're using. Uh it's free marketing. Uh, you if you can keep that 10% really engaged and happy, they are some of your most engaged and most loyal customers if you allow them to do that. The other 90%, the realities of life kick in, not everybody is going to take that 2 a.m. flight. Not everybody is going to go through a routing that allows you to do two stopovers. If you're with family in tow, that's a completely different uh story altogether. But there is uh, you know, there are ways to minimize and or sorry, rather, maximize the value prop there as well. But perhaps it won't be the same as somebody that has that kind of flexibility. So there we are looking at some of uh some very simple and rigid formats, which is can I use a gift card that I got, which I availed through an e-store and got some X percentage as a cashback? Uh, can you use that? Of course, you can use that. Can I travel on this particular flight that goes direct? So I'm saving up on time. I have three kids with me, and just the most direct flight makes more sense to me. So the value prop there is their own time. The value prop there is for relative comfort of their family, no matter which cabin they're flying in, as long as they're able to do that. And oftentimes we say this uh off various forums that value means different things to different people. One person may value.

Jen LaForge 16:35

Sorry, it's like you've watched this podcast before.

Anshul Singh 16:38

Oh, you guys were talking about the same thing.

Jen LaForge 16:40

Maybe a couple of times.

Anshul Singh 16:40

Oh, yeah, it means it completely means different things to different people. You gave an example of that uh one point means less than a penny. Uh, some people love their math, some people love their gymnastics, and they are really tied into that value. They won't do a certain thing until they know they're reaching a value which is more than a penny because that's how they earned it at say less than a penny, they want something more than a penny. And for some people, the value prop is I'm just gonna get to the airport, direct flight with my family. Once I'm at my destination, that's when my vacation starts, and that's what my value is for my time for ease. So that that is a very different uh value proposition. And then we have uh in our own world, I might be aging myself, uh, the couponing people, uh cutting out coupons and such. So that's the same kind of mentality to them. A value proposition could be hey, this route or this ticket I purchased or this hotel room that I booked, I got 15% off through this cashback site. And that's their value proposition. So yeah, uh, as long as people understand what their value proposition is, it uh it works for them. And and that's key key in a world where influencers everywhere tell you things that you should follow, often not realizing that your realities in life are not the same as the 20-year-old influencer telling you uh to do a certain thing.

Jen LaForge 17:59

To me, is that you have an abundance of data in your platform and you've done an excellent job of translating that data into emotions and behaviors, which I think is sometimes lost in highly analytical people because numbers are numbers, they're telling a story, obviously, but does certainly sound like you're taking that story to the next level. Is that a safe assumption or where are you and how are you defining what your customer-based values are?

Anshul Singh 18:30

Yeah, um, I'd love to say yes to all of that and come across as really nifty with uh data read. Um but to be honest, I just have spent enough time in this space. And initially, when we started, when I said it was more similar to a blog uh than anything else, the website uh reading it was geared towards that 10% that wanted to maximize things. But as we've evolved from being uh a website just talking about uh loyalty program uh to a website uh or to a travel media because we do so many verticals, uh, we've really turned our efforts back into the community in the sense we try and not cater to the internet stranger. We try and cater to people that already follow our work and know what we are doing. And in doing that, we've had very close connect with our readership, with our community build, uh either behind a paywall or people that attend various events that we do around the country and such. It allows you to humanize that data point.

Jen LaForge 19:29

Right.

Anshul Singh 19:29

Uh so when you realize why people are doing what they're doing, uh, that's a much better use of data set rather than just looking at looking at that data set on a screen. Uh so I think it's just by default, it just so happened that uh being in this space for the last 20 years and meeting all of these people, even though it was a smaller data set and has grown from there, uh, yes, we collect a lot of data that we get to see in terms of what people are doing, how they're engaging, how they're not engaging, what the drop-off points are, and all of that. Uh, but to be able to meet them and then understand. So we do these uh similar to this, we do live streams with our uh community uh members every week. Uh, and they are more than happy to share their disappointments, their successes, uh their rationale for engaging in an offer or not engaging with an offer or a promotion that came by and we get to see the metrics as to open.

Jen LaForge 20:18

We do this every week.

Anshul Singh 20:19

We do this every week on a Saturday, 1 p.m. That's just a thing that we do. It allows our community to give us direct feedback. And that really started off during COVID days just as a way for us to engage with the community while we were all at home and not traveling. Uh, but it quickly became a way for us to funnel feedback back to brands. And it uh yeah, it's now successful enough. We sit down with executives, uh, much like yourself, airline executives, hotel executives, other brand people. Uh, we've done a few digital launches for a few brand partnerships with airlines and such. Uh, so it allows us to do both, bring them into the same room, and they get to hear direct feedback uh from the audience. And I must add that it's not sometimes the most comfortable thing to do. Not every executive is as ready uh to put themselves out there and to hear that feedback. But for those that have done that, they they see value and they they understand uh what it is. And and to them, they see those data sheets every day while they are behind a monitor.

Jen LaForge 21:16

Yeah.

Anshul Singh 21:16

But it allows them to humanize those data sheets to be like, okay, here's a room of say a hundred people that are live watching us, and here's what they're saying about our promotion. Um, so it's oftentimes much easier to for them to contextualize that as opposed to just hearing it from an affiliate member or hearing it from a partner as to what the feedback they think is true for their brand.

Jen LaForge 21:38

And feedback is a gift, right? Feedback is a gift. So speaking about of what your members are doing and understanding the behaviors and getting the feedback, the big question is in the final months of the year, every consumer's spending shifts around the holidays, or a majority do. Um it's a gifting. How does travel fit in? Into that. Does travel go quiet? Does it uh change in terms of how people are booking it? Is it shorter stays because it's for visits? Is it gifts? Are people gifting travel? Can you talk about the holiday traveler shopper?

Anshul Singh 22:15

Yeah. They really, the traveler becomes the shopper during the holiday times, and that's absolutely true. In our world of uh sort of points travel or luxury travel, often people are making decisions six months out, a full year out if they're trying, planning travel to someplace. And uh Black Friday, this season, festive season coming up, becomes their time to collect all the offers, goodies that are coming through from the brands because every brand wants your attention, wants your eyeball. Um, so yeah, this is the time when they collect all the off, collect all the offers, save as much as possible, and then they invest whatever they are collecting. And by collecting, I mean they could be collecting gift cards, they could be collecting uh actual gift items, which they'll use to gift to their family members. They could be because all of those things allow some form of saving. And brands have just become so good as soon as Thanksgiving hits, that's you basically even a month before Thanksgiving, you start seeing every brand launch an offer or two. So our community or the readership is very adept at knowing that this is the time they'll be putting some money out, knowing that the larger gains are coming in the next few months because when they use their gift cards bought right now for travel six months from now. Uh so it's a cycle.

Jen LaForge 23:32

So really smart, really savvy travelers are recognizing the value of this time of the year, maybe not for travel right now, but to book that travel right now. And they're leveraging the offers and the activity to do so. So those new to travel or who want to travel, now's the time to start planning your travel. Also, travel Tuesday. So the day after Cyber Monday is a big day. Is that industry-wide? Is it a real thing? Is Travel Tuesday the day? Am I booking my trip on Travel Tuesday? What would you do?

Anshul Singh 24:09

Yes and no. Uh it's become so popular. Oftentimes the savings are a bit more cosmetic. Uh, it's it's the same thing as um Boxing Day. Right? So you you've done all of your shopping, you've bought everything, and then just after all you've done all of your unboxing uh comes 26th, and you realize that uh there are sales to be had, but oftentimes those may not be the best sales because the best sales were just slightly before the actual festive period. So it's recognizing those patterns. Uh, but uh should you, yeah, keep keep an eye out. There's always something to be had. You just need to know what you're what you're trying to get. And that's the other key piece in learning about loyalty programs, points or miles and whatnot. People almost run this rat race, myself included, where you're constantly doing things to earn the points, it all often helps just pause and be like, why am I doing this? Like, what is that end goal that you want from this behavior? Uh and if your travel is set, if you know that you travel with your family every June, you go down to say the Caribbean, that's your end goal. So now you know. So whatever you do in this festive period when the offers and things are just being bombarded at you by these brands, uh, it is incumbent upon you to be like, I'm gonna ignore these eight things because they don't mean much to that end goal of travel in June. And I'm just going to double down on these two things that I think will help me out. So uh there's a lot of that sifting through, and we help them sift through that in terms of uh perhaps not uh adding you should do this and shouldn't do this, but more about value prof and which ones would get you better value in a short term. Like if you're looking to travel, if you haven't booked anything, you need to travel uh just around Christmas or in the New Year as it rolls out. Here's the three things that you should pay attention to. If you're thinking long-term travel, here are the things you should pay attention to. Perhaps more importantly, a lot of our writers, we have four writers, and uh they spend time on what you shouldn't be doing. Should we do that? And and and those are so we tackle it from both both sides.

Jen LaForge 26:13

So to take something that sounds complex but isn't, um, Angela, I am just too darn curious now. We've talked about the value and what value means to individual people. We talked about the end goal when you're booking. You've said a lot of things that are all really tied into that same idea that individuals have different priorities and different definitions of value. So the big question, which is funny because I've asked almost every guest this question, how do you define value in your life? What is valuable to you?

Anshul Singh 26:46

Time. As I've uh sort of uh grown older in this hobby, I've realized I don't care as much about maximizing my uh travel uh value through spending more times in different cities, this, that, and the other. And I'm going to continuous continuously use travel as a metric because that's our field. Yeah, direct flights, uh, that's my value. Uh not taking that 2 a.m. flight is my value. Yes. Uh not having a super long layover is my value. Uh, and if I do have that long layover, then I want enough points so that I can go into an airport hotel and lay down for six, seven hours as opposed to puttering around or even uh going and sitting in a lounge because that's not what I'm doing. Uh and yeah, just really understanding what my needs are and what kind of travel I'm doing. I'm a very different traveler when I'm traveling for work, very different traveler uh when it's me and my wife, and a very different traveler when we are doing a road trip across the country with the dog in tow. So it's just completely different things and you plan for those. And you said something that caught my attention. You uh you said that everybody uh decides value for themselves. It's easier said than done, though. It is perhaps the hardest thing to do is to not follow the crowd, just in life in general as well. Uh loyalty program is no different. Uh, you have four friends uh that you sit down for a coffee every day or uh dinner and whatnot, and you suddenly realize three of them are doing something, you're compelled to just do the same thing. Uh and oftentimes through our educational coaching pieces, website, talking, this podcast, uh it's just reminding people that everybody travels differently. Everybody it's okay to not be in the same bucket as everybody else. Uh so yeah, I wish I could say that people do that. They don't, and uh that irrational behavior continues to be our biggest folly. And you and not every redemption, not every travel is going to be a success story. So it's okay to have a bad redemption. It's okay to have a bad bad usage of your point because until you do that, you perhaps won't realize what a good usage of that point could be.

Jen LaForge 28:47

Without the dark, there is no light. And I have quit my red eyes because I have learned the hard way. Well, thank you so much for this. A lot of insights around travel, but also um human behavior that I didn't expect. So I appreciate that. And I want to end on uh your comment about how difficult it is to define our personal values. I hope that the questions we've been asking, the conversations we've been having are helping individuals to do that. But please don't get me started on how underrated spending the time to define your personal values, whether it is in travel or shopping or how to spend your money. The whole world needs to sit down and have a talk with themselves. And maybe we're gonna be the catalyst for that, maybe not. But what we do know is that we all have homework to do this quarter on our travel shopping, as well as maximizing our travel loyalty and rewards points. And don't forget to stack with Ratcheton. Thank you so much, Angela.

Anshul Singh 29:41

Thank you so much. Pleasure.

Jen LaForge 29:43

And that's it for this episode of Stack. If you found this useful, follow along as we interview leaders shaping the future of retail and learn how value really works behind the scenes. And if there's a topic you want us to unpack, I'd love to hear from you. See you next time.