Jen LaForge 0:00

I have to admit, I'm a little bit nervous today because it is an honor to be with our guest, Robin Kovitz. You are an incredible woman. I actually have to have my notes here because I don't want to miss a beat, but let me tell you who I have on today. The uh Baskets First of all, North America's premier gifting service and one of the top growing companies in Canada in now being led by this remarkable woman who in 2017 and 2021 was recognized as Canada's most powerful women, top 100. And then in 22, the Baskets team was also recognized as one of Canada's top-growing companies by the Globe and Mail's report on business for the third time in a row. The wins keep winning. Um, we're so excited to have you. You have an incredibly impressive background. So to start, let's shine on you a little bit. Talk to me about your journey, um, and then let's go into how you you came to baskets. But who are you?

Robin Kovitz 1:01

Wow. First of all, thanks so much for having me, Jennifer. I mean, I I also fangirls you and was absolutely blown away by your background and what you've built at rocketing.ca. Um, it's really truly an honor to be here. You're guest number 18, right? You said 18, I think. Eight, 18. I think, yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for having me. So I'm Robin, born and raised in Calgary. Um, I went to Queens, have an MBA from Harvard, and had the great privilege of buying baskets 12 years ago. Baskets have been around for 40 years. They were the pioneers of the gift basket space. Um, we are actually on your platform recognition. That's my story. So we make gift baskets. So we help people connect. So whether you're looking on the corporate side to recognize your clients to find new clients. A lot of people use us for prospecting. You know, when you try to reach someone and they don't respond, you just send them a gift basket and magic, they call you back. The guilt. The guilt, yeah, the reciprocity factor. Um, or you know, for employees, we we have great service, or for individuals, we have uh a baby gift line that I'm very proud of personally.

Jen LaForge 2:01

Okay. That's not all your story though, because you were in private equity, and moving from private equity to then now owning and operating baskets is quite a jump. Uh, what was the mindset shift that I think instigated that that pivot?

Robin Kovitz 2:17

So when you work in private equity, you know, you raise money uh from investors and you have a fund, uh, and then you use that fund to invest in multiple businesses, which we did, learned a lot, loved my journey there. Um, when you break off like I did to do it on your own, you know, and I was just a new mom in era before there was work from home, a new mom who wanted to work from home before it was a thing. Um, and you're you're spending your life savings, you're bootstrapping your life savings. Um, it becomes the mindset shift is that it becomes much more personal. Um, and the stakes are higher, not only because it feels personal, but because um you got one. You have one shot. Yeah. Whereas in a portfolio of investments, they don't all need to win, right? Just the overall average of them all needs to succeed. Uh, when you're off investing your life savings, it has to work with the new baby. With the new baby in tow. Yes, my baby came to every single meeting and she is now 16. Oh, my side there. So um yeah, she's actually for those of you who check out our website, she is the model holding every gift basket on our site now because she is free labor.

Jen LaForge 3:22

That is a beautiful, beautiful story. And I'm sure my mom would have would have made me do all that hard work too. So fantastic. She's gonna grow up just like you, I hope. Um I mean, that mind shift, once you're in it, there's so much risk too. And you're a new mom, so you're a new person discovering who you are, and now you're a business leader. What would you say um was the belief though, right? Because you want to do your own thing, but you had to have had belief, in particular that baskets was the right way to go. How what was that belief? Yeah, I mean, some days you have belief, some days you have doubt.

Robin Kovitz 4:01

And you just have to keep going. Um, no, I think I spent four years interviewing business owners, kind of like what you're doing on your podcast, traveling all over the city with my new baby in tow, um, trying to figure out what a good business was and what it wasn't. And um, and I saw a lot of potential in baskets. I mean, it's a very large industry. Uh, it's an underestimated industry. I I can't tell you the number of times I'm traveling and I meet someone on a plane and they say, Oh, you you do gift box because my wife also does that in the basement. And I say, you know, well, we have 55,000 square feet and 100 employees, and it, you know, like it's a real business. I'm very kind of like shocked, right? So I think, I think in a nutshell, it's it's a very large industry uh that has doesn't have a lot of, there's no big behemoth professional competitor in the space. So it's wide open, very fragmented. Um, and I think the biggest thing for me is that it's very fun. So all day, every day, we're spreading joy and building connection. And it's really an honor to be a part of people's special moments.

Jen LaForge 5:00

I love that. That might be my favorite uh part of your story at this point. You're not just driving transactions in your business. You've touched on it. This is a really emotional business because you're gifting and you're celebrating moments and new babies and um even sad moments. You know, there's the the get well and feel better, and I'm thinking of you. And condolences. And huge. Huge. Yeah. And so that is far more emotional. And the way that you market and the way that you're approaching a business is different than if you're in a just highly transactional space. And so was there was there any pull there in your decision, or did that some become something that really surprised you when you were in it?

Robin Kovitz 5:44

Yeah, such an astute observation, Jen. I think um, yeah, so from the start, it was very personal, right? Bootstrap, life savings, a very personal decision for me. I was looking for my life's work, not just a job, not just um, and so it was very personal. And then I ended up buying this business that's very personal. Right. Um, and then I accidentally sort of ended up in this industry where my competitors view it as a very transactional relationship. So in the gift basket space, you can imagine that there are two customers in every transaction. There's typically the person who pays for the gift, who usually never sees the gift, and then there's the person who receives the gift. And I think there are a lot of bad actors in our space who take advantage of those dynamics to take your money and send something subpar to the person who receives it. And 20 years ago, they might have gotten away with that in the world without, you know, the internet and e-commerce. We've always taken the white hat approach that, you know, the picture you see is exactly what we're gonna send. And we do the right thing. Um and so yeah, it's it's deeply personal for us to share in people's moments. And I think the the happy sort of end result of that is in this marketing world of LTV, lifetime value, that doing the right thing and being honest and transparent with your customers has resulted in us having trust with our customers and having higher LTV. Our customers stay with us for a very long time. And they think of us for not just one moment, every moment. And so the nice, nice result of doing the right thing has been that our customers are not transactional, their relationship in long term.

Jen LaForge 7:12

Fantastic. I feel that there's an answer in there, but I'm gonna still kind of pose this question. You mentioned earlier that it's a very fractional and there's not a big competitor in the space with you. There's individuals working out in the basement. Would you say that it's that delivery on the promise that has made baskets such a success and to grow to what it is today?

Robin Kovitz 7:35

Thanks. Um, maybe, yeah. I think the other piece is that it's very hard to do this well at scale. And so you can imagine a gift basket. I mean, there are a lot of people who think, oh, gift basket's fun. I want to design one, and it is a lot of fun. And there are a lot of people, particularly women who do that in their basement. But when you start to get major orders, to do that at scale is very difficult. You can imagine you have, I could have in a gift basket 20 different vendors from all around the world with different lead times, perhaps with perishability in the product. So making sure all of that is coordinated is complex. And then on the sales side, making sure that it's, you know, you could send me an order for 100 for your top customers. That sales order then needs to go to a hundred different addresses. That's very complex. So the business is actually to execute flawlessly is extremely complex. And to do that at scale requires um real sophistication and investment in technology that not a lot of players in the industry have. And so one of our competitive advantages has been that we've invested millions of dollars in a decade in built to building the infrastructure to be able to execute at scale flawlessly.

Jen LaForge 8:38

Yeah, I have to admit, I I never would have thought about the technology or the infrastructure behind a business like Basket. So can you talk a little bit more about that? I mean, what's the technology piece? And can you paint a picture of the infrastructure and what this 55,000 square foot facility looks like?

Robin Kovitz 8:53

Yes, I'd love to host you anytime to King Lawrence. Come by. Oh, I'm there all the time. Uh genes and runners. And um yeah, it's extraordinarily complex. It's, you know, on the outside, we seem very glamorous to our customers, and that's great. We want them to only see the beautiful thing delivered on time. Behind the scenes, you know, we're like this fish underwater, duck underwater, pedaling, pedaling, peddling to make sure that you don't see any of the hard things that have to happen to get it there. So um on the design side, you know, like any manufacturing business, we would have a bill of materials. At a higher level, we have an ERP system, an enterprise resource planning system that enables us to have a bill of materials and properly cost each design. And that enables us to forecast, plan, and order components in a way that makes sense so that they arrive on time. Then we have a very sophisticated manufacturing process that makes sure that the gifts are manufactured just in time with enough time to make sure we meet the ship dates. Then we have a very sophisticated sort of ordering process where, because you might also want your brand name on the card messages or on the ribbon, and there's lead time and process that has to happen for that as well. And you might have a specific date, like for this conference, or you know, maybe more on the other side of this or company, uh, that it needs to be delivered. It has to be delivered on that date. And so there's a lot of technology that goes into that and making sure that the order date with time and transit is worked back to the ship date. It's enormously complex. And then there's the whole, you know, we're a manufacturer, we're also a retailer, and we're also a service provider. So we have a whole call center that takes orders that answers queries. Um, and then we have a corporate sales team, right? So we have large corporate customers who are looking to do things on the corporate side. So it's it's just a really fun business that has complexity on the product sales marketing side, um, where there's technology in each of those places. So we have a CRM system uh uh where we can keep all of our customer information.

Jen LaForge 10:38

So so what did you said I think baskets is 40 years old? 40 years old. And so you you took it over, you bought this and made it a deeply personal um ambition for you 12 years, 14 years ago. Yeah, 2014. What did it look like 12 years ago?

Robin Kovitz 10:54

I think the two women who started Baskets out of their garage did a great job. It was in 1985 and they were visionaries, right? Like, can you imagine 1985 women couldn't even get bank loans, right? Like it was a different world. And I just had my hat goes off to them. I think they did such a great job. And they took the business, they were the leaders, you know, the typical J. Kerbin business. And so they had this, you know, shot out of the gates and very profitable, very growth was easy. Um, and then what like in any business, what happens is then you have people that say, Hey, that sounds fun. You have new entrants, right? And profitability and sales growth slow down, and I think things get tougher. And I think I think they did an incredible job taking the business where they could. And then I think things started to get much different. And I think, you know, they were older and and looking to move away from the business. Um, so the business looked very different. I mean, I think we were still the leaders, we still had the values that we have today, right? Trust, transparency, honesty doing the right thing, product quality first. Um, but we didn't have the systems, infrastructure, and data that we have today.

Jen LaForge 11:49

Yeah.

Robin Kovitz 11:49

Uh, that was sort of the sophistication that I brought to the business and not just me, my team. Um, and so I think we're like Baskets 2.0 today, like the modern digital e-commerce version of Baskets. We were a catalog company to start.

Jen LaForge 12:02

Well, so I was going to say 12 years ago it was really a strong inflection point as well, because e-commerce was um, it's crazy to think that it was still very early on, um, just a short period of time ago where most Canadians were still uncomfortable with it, but it was definitely picking up speed. So, what a great inflection point to kind of come in and take it to that next level. Um, and what what a great story. I'm gonna want to talk to you just on the side personally around scaling businesses, because I think you've done something remarkable. Um, Jen, you're taking packaging.ca to huge heights. Well, thank you so much. So we're gonna have a lot to talk about. I would love that. Or a lot, a lot to talk and learn. Um, and and our ability to to do these incredible things comes from connections like this and being able to talk to individuals who've been there, who have been, yeah, who have the blood, the sweat, the tears that goes into it. Um, and so yeah, I we're we're gonna this uh this is the beginning of something beautiful. Um speaking of that, we talked, I this has been rolling around in my head, so I want to go back to it. You talk we talked about that promise and that drives that LTV. Things go wrong. And I'm sure that you've had those days where the products didn't come in, you can't put together half your baskets, you've run out of inventory, people are coming to the site and there's one basket left, um, or it wasn't delivered on time, or you know, was there ever a case where the wrong sentiment was sent with the basket, which sounds awful. Um, how do you recover from that? And what actually happens? Do you lose that member, or is do you know how to get them back when you when something like that happens?

Robin Kovitz 13:35

What a great question. I think um in business, the only thing you can count on is things going wrong. Right? I mean, like any business leader who tells you the opposite is lying. I mean, every day I wake up and I say, I wonder what's gonna happen today on my drive-in. Um, every day we're we're faced in and right now, especially, I think there's so many crazy things happening at once and the pace is accelerating. Are you finding that in your business? Yeah. It's just wild. Um, and so um, what I really try to do with my team is to foster a culture of um, like, let's not hide from these mistakes. I don't even like that word. Yeah. I have team members who are so scared to make a mistake, and I'm like, it's not a mistake, and I don't even want to look, you know, they try and explain why something happened. I I don't care at all. We are where we are. How are we gonna, and the expression that we all use, and when I hear my team using it, it makes me so proud. How are we gonna recover brilliantly? That's all I care about. And so every we we say, we are where we are. It doesn't matter whose fault it was or what happened. I don't even care about that word fault. It's how are we gonna recover brilliantly as a team? And I I'm here to help you recover brilliantly. What are we gonna do? So for sure, things happen all the time. Um, a lot of our competitors have this sort of like substitution policy, which they use as a blank, like, hey, we might have to switch something out in the basket. And they use that as a blank because they don't haven't invested in the operations to at least try to get the right thing out. We have it at for an absolute insurance policy in those really rare situations. But what we do is we have an upgrade policy. So if truly, if if there is a catastrophic, it would be a catastrophic thing, like a typhoon hitting a container or something, uh, because we're very, very disciplined about our planning, uh, where we're not able to send what we promised to. And if that does happen, we'll let you know. Uh, honesty, transparency, communication, and we'll upgrade you on us. Um, so we just have this thing of always making it right. Um, the odd time there is human error, right? Someone picks the wrong gift or sends the wrong thing and it can be catastrophic, right? Like a happy birthday for a funeral. I think that's happened once in my 12 years. And and you take you just gulp and sure you've made those calls too, right? Where are you? And for us, our our brand values are just honesty, right? This is what happened. It's our fault. This is what we're gonna do about it. How do we make this right? And I think you'll see reading the reviews on our site, I think that radical honesty and transparency and um ability to recover brilliantly, desire to recover brilliantly, has led to our customers sticking with us.

Jen LaForge 15:55

I love that. Um, you've given me, I think, notes of your leadership style, uh, which I think you and I will likely have a lot in common there as well. And by want to lean in there a little bit more, going from private equity, and then now you're owning and operating this. Those are very different leadership muscles. Well, what would you say you've learned the most throughout the 12-year journey?

Robin Kovitz 16:19

Oh my gosh, what a great question. Yeah, like I grew up in investment banking, which is like even more to that side of the spectrum of like tough, rough. Like I it was not unusual to have someone like throw something at me or scream at me or personally insult me. Like that, that's the culture that it is. And that was the culture that I grew up in as an analyst and cut my teeth in. And so to some extent, I think that I had a um a skewed, like almost PTSD view of what a well-run business should be, that that hard-driving culture. And so I think it was really hard for me when I first became a CEO because I realized especially that you know, not everyone wants even views their cur their job as a career. It's, you know, that it's nine to five. And that was all that was all new to me. I think what I'm trying to say is I had to learn and evolve as a CEO that um you have to treat people carefully. Almost that maternalistic sort of leadership. You have you cannot, not everyone, we're obviously a types, you and me. You don't get where we are without being like that. But most people are not. And uh just really understanding your audience and adapting your style. Um, I'm doing a terrible job answering this question.

Jen LaForge 17:23

You are not, you're not, but I'm having a hard time imagining you as that cutthroat business leader coming from private equity and then barking orders at you know, these people building beautiful baskets. Um, I wish I could go back in time and meet that person to compare against the person today. But I think what I heard you say was that your people are your greatest asset. And to be a good leader, you have to treat them like people. Um, especially when you're in this world that you're in with baskets, and again, a very emotional business. Um so I'm a bit amazed that you've even described that because I can't see it. I can't see it at all.

Robin Kovitz 18:04

It's interesting though, because I I think of everything in terms of a spectrum. And so if you think of that barking orders on the left and now, you know, being super uber nice on the right, I think, and I don't know that I found equilibrium yet. I think maybe I've gone too far to the right because sometimes I look around and I say, wow, we're not getting the performance that we need. Maybe if I was a bit tougher driver of a leader, maybe performance would be higher, but maybe I'd have more turnover. I mean, Jen, I'd love to hear how you think about that as a leader.

Jen LaForge 18:28

So you just made me think of uh this was from my mentor, Ron Baugh. He uh he said this to me. He likely got it from elsewhere. I can't can't recall. Um, but I was working with him on this particular challenge as well. And he said to me, there is no conflict between empathy and accountability. And that has stuck with me to this day because as a woman, we sometimes, again, that pendulum over into the empathy side um makes us feel, you know, they our team comes to us and something has gone wrong or they're dealing with something personally. And we can still address that. But sometimes it's very difficult for us to know how to address that, but then still say, well, but business performance is here. And so that idea to wrap around empathy and accountability really helps me in the conversation piece to say, I'm really sorry that that's happened and I'm here to support you in this in any way that we can. We still have to deliver here. So, what can we do together to make sure that happens and still be able to take care of this issue for you? And that makes people, in a way, still feel seen and heard and supported, but in a way gives them, I think, more trust and autonomy to be able to go through that and take care of the business for you as well. And so that I I take no credit for that. It was obviously a learning lesson for me as well. But um, it's definitely a challenge that that women in particular do have in the industry. Um, and and again, we're also fighting the if we do go too far on the other side and we're putting down the hammer, um, you know, we're very easily construed as too aggressive. And so finding that balance is is it's very difficult. And I think that's why I'm so in awe of that that transformation over 12 years. So thank you for sharing that with me. That that's one of those ones I'm gonna remember always.

Robin Kovitz 20:20

Can you say it again? There's no there's no conflict between empathy and accountability and accountability. Conflict. I love that. There's no conflict between empathy. I will use that always. Thank you.

Jen LaForge 20:30

Yeah, no, of course. Thank you, Ron.

unknown 20:32

Thank you, Ron.

Jen LaForge 20:34

He's gonna call me after this and say, I didn't say that. No, he he did, but I don't know where the quote comes from. So maybe we'll we'll follow up with uh with an actual link to that. That's gonna be one of my ramenisms. So Ron and take, I'm stealing it, Ron and Jen. Thank you. I love it. Um, so Robin, what's what's next? I mean, you said you wanted to build a life. This is not your job, this is your career. You are baskets at heart. Where do you see baskets going? Where do you want to take this?

Robin Kovitz 21:01

Wow, another great question, Jen. We're like such a deep thinker. I'm uh I'm in awe of you. Thank you. Um yeah, so I bought baskets when I started, became a mother, and now my children are nearly at the stage where they're leaving. And you know, my husband and I are starting to think about this next chapter and what that looks like for us. Um, it has been a deeply personal mission. I get a call a week of people trying to buy my business, which I will never ever sell. Okay. Um, it's my third child. For what's next for me is impact. And I think baskets recently received its B Corp certification. Okay. Many people don't know what that is. And I I I frank as a marketer, I frankly, you're the marketer, not me. I frankly think they need to rebrand because whenever I say it, they're like B, like not the A team, like the B team. And I'm like, no, no, no. What it means, what it means is that you so if you're a B Corp certified company, you have to pass this very rigorous standard in which you pass showing that yes, you're a for profit organization, but you you pass the highest standards of environmental. uh an ethical guardianship, I guess. And so it means that we take care of our people and the environment. And for me, the next thing on my personal journey is to help hopefully, you know, we want to get to 100 million in sales. That's our goal. And then we, you know, that will give us some financial freedom and flexibility for me to focus on my passion project, which is trying to help other business leaders see that you can, you can do business differently. Yes. I think, you know, I had the great privilege of attending the Harvard Business School, learning about different business models from all around the world. And I think there I really learned about um and you know in the US right now I think there's such fragmentation about what is the purpose of the organization. And if we have time, I'll share one quick story. Oh, great. So I grew up with a family business and I grew up watching my dad run a business and um and that drove me to think that entrepreneurship was terrible. Oh, okay. Because entrepreneurship is very hard and there are many times when, you know, he almost lost the business, right? And it ended up being a very happy story where he sold the business and and you know made a lot of his employees fabulously wealthy and shared that with his team. And long story short, uh he had this one warehouse worker who was fabulous who'd been with him for 15 years. And it was at a time when the business was not doing well, losing money my dad was very stressed. And the warehouse worker was a single dad and his kid got hit by a car. Just like horrific story. And my I you know I'm little and I'm overhearing my dad and my dad's saying you know what num, don't worry about it. Just spend the next six months in the hospital with your kid. I'm going to pay you. I'm going to pay you for the next six months. And he was struggling at this struggling like I and I remember being young saying to my dad like where how are you going to pay him if you're, you know, you're on every other colleague here you're freaking about money. How's how and he said Robin like it'll come out of my salary. This is just what a leader does. It's the right thing to do. He doesn't have any support. He has a chance of getting his kid better. Like this is you know thankfully the the company will figure it out. And so I grew up thinking that the purpose of a company is to help with those kinds of things. The purpose of a company is just not not just to make the shareholders fabulously wealthy. And that was my world and then I went to Harvard where I learned all kinds of different models. But my my point is to say that I think I don't you know different countries feel differently about what the role of government should be in that in healthcare education. I think companies who are successful have an obligation to help people. I really do. And it might be Pollyanna and so I would love to um next for me would be helping other business leaders see that.

Jen LaForge 24:28

I love that.

Robin Kovitz 24:28

You know you see these cajillionaires who you know they're they're cutthroat negotiating with their vendors. Their vendors are going bankrupt but they're making billions of dollars and then at the end of the day they have a foundation. It's like why don't you just pay your workers more and let your vendors make money and then make a billion less and not have a foundation. Yeah. So I I think there's this whole other sorry now I'm on my soapbox. I think there's a whole other way of doing business as people that we need to think about.

Jen LaForge 24:53

Yeah. If you're going to say sorry, say sorry because you just caught me falling in love on camera because everything you've just said uh just just resonates with my own core values. And I love that you're doing that. And I want to make sure that we can help baskets get to that hundred million so you have that breathing room to do that. Oh my God. Thank you. So they're on rackton.ca you can get cash back. We're going into the busiest time of the year holidays there's a lot of gifting if you haven't thought of a gift basket go to baskets.com check it out um we I had said use baskets all the time both business and personally myself and the quality is there the emotion is there it and it takes the thinking out of it. So please support Robin support baskets support the environment support families I mean you're really uh a gem and a diamond in the rough I'm so happy to have you here today. Is there anything wow I'm going to cry well don't no we're not going to cry we're not going to cry. We're in love. These are tears of joy. Anything else that we didn't cover that you think um really the audience should know about either baskets your brand or these deep values you have as a business leader?

Robin Kovitz 26:08

No, I mean I'm I'm I'm so touched that this has been a spotlight on baskets and I think that's a testament to you Jen as a leader and what you're trying to do with this reach that you have and I so appreciate that. I feel remiss that we didn't talk about rackutin.ca because you guys have been a fabulous partner for us for many years, I think almost five years now and and this whole world of affiliate I mean I just think um it's such an interesting time for maybe for those listeners who haven't really thought about affiliate as a channel. From my I'm not a marketer but from my perspective as a CEO for many years SEM and SEO was the playbook. So paid marketing and organic search and that driving conversion. I think that playbook is broken in this new world of AI. Every month I look at I'm just paying Google to to break even and that's that's no model for business success. I would encourage other CEOs to really think about affiliate is that it can be this commission based sales channel that you don't have to pay for it. You know you're only paying a percentage of sales which is like who doesn't want more sales?

Jen LaForge 27:10

Pure paper performance.

Robin Kovitz 27:11

Yeah and so on a personal level I'm really looking at my overall marketing budget. I'm looking at the pressure on MER, the managed marketing expensive show that that many business owners are looking at and I'm looking at trying to learn more about your world. I'd love to hear your thoughts on like how can we use affiliate more to drive sales?

Jen LaForge 27:28

Well we're going to have many meetings. I'm going to come to your warehouse we're going to be best friends and we're going to gift each other beautiful baskets for the holidays. So we'll definitely talk there but I think what you just nailed is something that we've been trying to to really bring a voice to and just how critical affiliates are now. They are growing at I think the the fastest speed of any other marketing channel out there right now. And we're touching everything across the the creator, the influencer, the social, the um you know sites and rewarding loyalty programs like rackton.ca and and you're absolutely right the game is changing the playbooks are broken and this is one that works and you have data that will inform you as well as again a true paper performance model that you can make a CEO very comfortable with. So any CEO out there listen to Robin she knows what she's talking about. Consider affiliate consider affiliate talk to talk to us over at rackin.ca um Robin thank you this is uh this was a real pleasure for me personally um but I hope our guests really enjoyed it and um we're gonna need to go for lunch because I would love that lots more to talk about. Thank you so much for having me Jen of course thank you.

Robin Kovitz 28:41

And that's it this episode of stacked if you found this useful follow along as we interview leaders shaping the future of retail and learn how value really works behind the scenes. And if there's a topic you want us to unpack, I'd love to hear from you. See you next time